Bearcats Mean Business Archive: 2026

Grant Freking: (00:00)
What does real world success in business actually look like? Welcome the Bearcats Mean business, the official podcast of the University of Cincinnati's, Carl h Lindner College of Business, where inspiring career stories, honest lessons, and fresh business perspectives from the people building impact in the real world, come together, tune in for inspiration, practical business insights, and forward-looking thought leadership on how ambition turns into action. And now for today's episode. All right. So Dustin, thank you for being here. You are the CEO of two companies, ranger Steel and Craft force. How do you have the bandwidth to head two companies and is there a relationship between the two organizations?

Dustin Grutza: (00:43)
There is a relationship that makes it a lot easier to have the bandwidth, thankfully, but, um, you know, managing time that, that is the biggest thing that I have to, uh, factor in, helped. I can imagine. I've, yeah, I've helped from a lot of my team members in doing so, and have a lot of leaders that I have in positions that can take care of what they need to do. So a big part of that is not just, um, there's, there is my time management, but my time management and, um, delegating the right things, having the right team members on board so that it's not all on me at all. I, I would never say that being a CEO, if you do not have a good team, you're not gonna have a good company. And, uh, I totally, I'm thankful for the team that I do have and all the work that they're able to do because without 'em it would not happen.

Grant Freking: (01:28)
Ranger is something that was founded by your parents, correct?

Dustin Grutza: (01:31)
Yes, it was actually, we are in our 30th year, so 30 years going strong. I'd say I kind of took over about 10 years ago as far as, uh, really I came to the business 15, but okay. About 10 years ago, really started taking it over and pushing things and then, um, got named CEO last year. And so, uh, we're trying to really take things to the next level.

Grant Freking: (01:51)
What role has that played in your own separate entrepreneurial journey, which we'll kind of get to your other individual contributions and companies, but what is role has like kind of growing up in the family business played in that?

Dustin Grutza: (02:01)
I think it's played, played a large role. You know, when seeing my parents start their business, kind of go from my mom working in a daycare, um, yeah, having about 40 kids and owning a daycare, working at nights, doing bookkeeping. As my dad was starting a company, him and a couple other guys and some trucks, um, pushing things on the heavy industrial side, you know, trying to kind of live that American dream. To now we have like 24 trucks and, you know, Freightliners and Cranes and all the different stuff. And kind of seeing that growth as I was, uh, I think they started when I was, what, 10 years old? Yeah. So seeing that, um, change not just, um, the work that they're putting into it, working day and night, but also, uh, how that impacted, uh, what they're able to do outside of work and, uh, be involved in different things. So I think seeing that, and then I was naturally kind of brought into leadership roles my whole life, uh, especially when you're young athletics, right? As a point point guard or I was a quarterback, I just kind of fell into these like leadership roles. So it only felt right. I think that in my stepping stones as working and moving through things that, that was, I was bound to become , A CEO or in some sort of a leadership role in my life. Yeah, there's

Grant Freking: (03:14)
Like a tone of fulfillment. I can sense in your voice. Were you inspired by your parents in, in kind of witnessing this?

Dustin Grutza: (03:20)
A thousand percent. I mean, they are workers like . My dad, like if they're going on vacation to go sit on a beach, they're gonna sit on the beach for a little bit, but they're gonna be walking, they're gonna be doing stuff. Yeah. My dad's looking for work. He loves farming, you know, he is got, he's still involved very heavily at Ranger, but loves to do something else all the time. It's the same with my mom. And so seeing that attitude, that mentality, that work ethic, uh, through my life, I mean, I think it helped instill the grit in me in the same way. And, uh, when I was playing sports here at uc, it was kind of the same thing. You know, I wasn't the biggest guy, I wasn't the fastest guy. Um, but I was starting and pushing in, in a leadership role the whole time because of that. You know, it's like you want it and go work for it.

Grant Freking: (04:03)
Right. How do you compare and contrast the running the two companies as, as we've talked about, ranger as a family business that you grew up with and in craft force with something that you founded years ago. So how do you compare and contrast the two?

Dustin Grutza: (04:17)
Um, very different and, um, many ways. Okay. I'll start by talking about like my own company, right? So in starting at craft force and starting my own thing, um, I am able to instill a lot of the practices or leadership qualities, uh, that I think are the most important in how we communicate and how we do a lot of our, our work, right? So by doing that, I have more influence, and I wouldn't say control it, but have I am able to build it from the ground up. With my parents' business, they didn't have a lot of that background. They were grinding and pushing and growing and also in a different time. And so that company grew and was expanding, but I think there was less of that. Let's set up the structure. Let's make sure we have the right pieces in place so that we can grow more.

Dustin Grutza: (05:03)
It was more like grow and figure it out in a lot of ways. And so, which is great, and that's how you do, that's how you do businesses. Um, but, um, I think with that, uh, coming into a family business, I think a lot of people who have family businesses can kind of relate as you are growing or trying to make, uh, changes that might be for the better. It's a little more difficult because you need to get everybody on board, right? And, um, as you're doing that and changing a way we're creatures of habit, uh, you know, creatures of routine making those changes are a little bit more difficult, uh, midway through. So, um, that's been some of the challenges, but also a way that I think I've seen successes of certain things of craft force and certain things that we've tried that haven't worked. But by having that smaller company that've started from the beginning that we've kind of built this around, I've been able to instill some of those practices into Ranger, which has helped it, uh, as it's been really growing over the past few years.

Grant Freking: (06:01)
Let's, let's wind the clock back even a little bit more. Why did you wanna get your business education at Lindner and the University of Cincinnati?

Dustin Grutza: (06:09)
Uh, you know, this is a great school. Uh, uh, university of Cincinnati was close to home. Um, a lot of choosing Cincinnati had to do with sports at that time, right? Um, so I was coming here and actually the engineering school had a big part too. I was looking at how, how do I find a degree that kind of combines business and engineering. Okay. And, um, I thought at first I was just gonna get my mechanical engineering degree and then get a MBA afterwards. I was kind of the, the game plan. But, um, as you get going, you realize if you're gonna be a full-time, uh, athlete and play quarterback, you may not have time for co-ops and other, uh, pieces of that puzzle, uh, related to the engineering side. But on the business side, I could do a lot of, uh, the other programs and kind you could co-op at different times or summer or work for other entities.

Dustin Grutza: (06:54)
So it worked out as a better option. They had a, a combined degree for me and, uh, but choosing, choosing University of Cincinnati had to do with, um, it's great school. Um, loved the city of Cincinnati. It was close to home. Parents would be able to come watch me play and do all those different things. But the school itself had all the pluses and I saw the ways that the co-op program brought out, uh, just enabled you to get in touch with the city and help the city grow. And I think that's still the case. So many people who go through the co-op program, they find their university or their find, they find their, their landing, um, position or, or company, I should say, their career through that co-op program and continue it from there.

Grant Freking: (07:38)
Right. We touched on leadership a little bit earlier, um, and I want to revisit that. You mentioned being the quarterback and point guard growing up, and you were the quarterback of the football team here at uc. How did being the quarterback influence your views on leadership and culture and team building and any, is, how much of that is translatable to what you do now?

Dustin Grutza: (08:00)
Uh, all, all of it. I mean, in every way. I, I think, I think sports, um, transfers into business very easily, um, because of coaches and pushing things and, and how, uh, you have to have leaders within, especially in football leaders within each division, right? You have a linebacker, uh, core. You have safeties and defensive backs. You have offensive line, you have quarterbacks, receivers, you have these different segments, but you need a leader within each one of those. And then you need a leader for the whole offense and leader for the whole defense and a leader on the field for the whole team, you know, the captains, and then you need the coach. You have your coaches who are the leaders. And so you have to have that same structure in business. In order to be really successful, you need leaders at all areas. So like when I, looking at the construction business, you have leaders in, obviously your executive, your finance, your operations off the operations.

Dustin Grutza: (08:53)
You may have different divisions that someone needs to be leading those divisions, right? And then all the way to the job that you're doing, uh, you get down to a four man crew pushing a job. Maybe they're building a building, right? You need someone leading that crew helping make sure everything's going the right way. And so that continuation of leadership and having the same message and the same values, um, you see that through football and that transfers right into business. So I think there is a great collaboration there. Yeah. And so I learned all that through football, I feel like. And so as I went into the workforce, it was like, oh, this all makes so much sense.

Grant Freking: (09:26)
And now that you've ascended to leadership positions in two companies, how do you determine the leaders that are under you? Do they reveal themselves or do you have, do push people? How does that work for you?

Dustin Grutza: (09:38)
Usually they're, they reveal themselves. Okay. They come asking for more, and not just like more money or anything like that. They finish something and they're looking, they have more time. They wanna do more. They have ideas that they bring forward. They start showing themselves as leaders within what they're doing and the group that they're working in. And others go to them for answers, um, and start working with them. And they just kind of, many times they show themselves. But as you're recruiting those types of people, or you're recruiting people in, um, lots of times that's what you're looking for. You're, you're looking for the intangibles of who they are, how they are, uh, more so than their experience. And, oh, I worked on these jobs and I have this, you might find someone who didn't work on at all at a position who has ended up going to run that division because they're willing to learn and they're work hard, and they have what it takes in so many other ways. They just needed some experience at what that is.

Grant Freking: (10:30)
Yeah. Just needed the opportunity. Right? Yeah. You've co-founded several companies since you earned your undergraduate and MBA degrees from Lindner. What voids were you seeking to fill with those startups, and what did you learn from those experiences?

Dustin Grutza: (10:42)
I think at the time I didn't think, uh, ranger was going to be like the landing spot for me. I think family business, I, I knew I, I could go in and help them, help them grow, but I thought, you know, there might be something else that I want to kind of build and put my name to. And, um, those other companies, I had ideas coming out. I did the entrepreneurial, uh, integrals here at College of Business then. And so I was very, I don't know, enamored by the startup world, what it can be. And as I started pushing those different companies, um, I always say fail early. Fail fast. You know, push everything as hard as you can early on. And if it's gonna fail and you see that it's gonna fail, then, then know that that's, that's not the right direction. Either pivot within that company or say, that was fun. That was great effort learned a lot. 'cause that, that's the biggest thing from each of those, uh, companies that I may have partnered into or we started, um, that didn't end up, you know, making it, I learned so much that was applicable to our other companies. Um,

Grant Freking: (11:47)
Yeah. How did, let's push on that further. What are, what are some of the, you know, things when, when you're sitting at your office today and something comes up or whatever, it's some sort of situation like, oh, I remember this from the startup days. What, what are some of the sort of, the examples of that you can think of?

Dustin Grutza: (12:01)
I think one big one would be relationships. Okay. Um, so as you were talking about building, building teams and doing all those different things, that's very important. But, um, sometimes you look at like, what's the core of a business? I take craft force, right? It's staffing in the trades. That's what we do. We find, uh, the best skilled trade workers, um, and we place them on jobs all across the country. And then, you know, that stems up to engineers and to laborers. But that's kind of our main focus. Well, we try to replace it with an app, think, uh, LinkedIn, um, think of those types of apps that are, uh, going to have communication through a network, but we wanted people to be able to hire through it as well. More like indeed, I would say,

Grant Freking: (12:41)
Yeah, create that link.

Dustin Grutza: (12:43)
So we tried to do all this where tech would be us and replace us, but what we found out is like, we're all human, you know? And so certain parts of what we wanna do, deal with and work for work in business has to do with the relationships that we can have. And so we found out that the people, especially who work in the trades, want those relationships. They want someone to help them act as almost like an agent if you were thinking of acting or, you know, the arts, like they're working all day so they don't have time to work on their next job. So they need someone to act in that way and have their best interest and understand what they really want. And so by trying to do that with tech, it didn't fill the void. It, it actually created, um, it made our business much more difficult.

Dustin Grutza: (13:28)
And what we learned, we ended up trashing that whole tech side. We thought that was gonna be our, our leg out. That was gonna be our, you know, multimillion dollar idea. We're gonna a differentiator. Yeah, we're gonna, this, we're gonna be the first in the trades to do this. Other trade companies have tried to do it has not worked either because it's a relationship, um, industry that is very much focused on, uh, on that side of things. So, uh, we learned from that and what our core competency, competency was as a company. So now, as far as how we do staffing and everything else, it's all about relationships. Everything we do, recruiting our clients, everything is all about relationships. And, and so we stay boutique because of that, because we know it's more important for us to have really strong relationships with our clients and the recruiting that we do. All of our different, our workforce versus, um, we don't need those relationships. We're just gonna let tech do it, and we're gonna have win by having the masses.

Grant Freking: (14:21)
Right. Well, speaking of relationships and engagement, you've become involved with uc and Lindner as an alum. Let's begin with your time with the Center for Entrepreneurship, for example, speaking like, uh, just the most recent example that I know of, you were involved with uc Startup Weekend. Yeah. Tell me about that and what other, what other things you're involved with, I guess the Entrepreneurship Center. We'll start there.

Dustin Grutza: (14:43)
Yeah. Um, 1819 Hub, um, we have some great relationships over there. Uh, Kate and some of the crew have kind of really brought us in to, uh, do more and more and, um, love to go over there and speak when I have the chance. But, uh, startup Weekend recently, they brought me in to be kind of a final judge, which was fun, you know, being the shark in the room. But, uh, honestly, the gr I learned just as much doing that because I got to hear what I'd say the youth, you know, I guess I'm getting old now, but, uh, uh, everyone here at the university sees as the greatest problems and what, what in our world that they need to solve, that they're trying to solve with apps or whatever it may be, right? The businesses that they see we need in our world in order to handle those, those problems. And so for me, understanding what problems they see versus what I might've thought was completely different. So I learned so much about that. And then also got to see how applications of, um, putting decks together, market research, how ai, uh, connects to all this. Now I got to see how the students are able to do that in different ways. And, um, it was, like I said, it was a learning experience on my side, but also great to see how far along the students are going through this university.

Grant Freking: (16:03)
So what are, what were some of your more specific takeaways in, in dealing with students? What are they coming to you for advice for? I guess maybe specifically as a business owner?

Dustin Grutza: (16:12)
Uh, I think they are coming for the leadership. Um, how, how have I been able to build what I have? Um, how do you continue that success and then the network, you know, I think when I spoke a few different times to them or had off conversations, a lot of it was talking about how, how do you get to where you're at and what steps do I need to take? And so I talk a lot about networking, how great Cincinnati is for that. Uh, you have business leaders all over the community who are willing to go have breakfast with you, who are willing to help, uh, who actually care. So you have that, that side of, um, you know, that Midwest, um, niceness approach that Yeah, they're approachable. Yeah. Yeah. That you can actually get a, I get advisors, have mentors, do all the different things that, um, is way more difficult if you're in the Bay or, you know, New York City or something like that.

Dustin Grutza: (17:03)
So I also learned from the businesses that they're trying to build, it was all about relationships. So everyone seems to want to have more phone down personal relationships, which for me, in my business is like exactly what we do as I was talking before. Yeah. So I was able to touch base on that, and I think it connected really well with me. Yeah. You know, that connection of, Hey, we need more time with our phones down. We need to have personal relationships with people, and how do we get there? And I think, I think the youth of, you know, of our world are trying to figure that out right now because they're so tied to their phones.

Grant Freking: (17:44)
Right. What are some of the other involvement you've had, uh, I guess maybe more recently or in the past with, um, Lindner or uc? I think you, you, I know you've been touch involved with athletics too in the past.

Dustin Grutza: (17:54)
Yeah. Uh, I do a lot with athletic athletics. Actually, I'm the head of our, you know, director of our alumni for the football side. Um, I meet with a lot of the team there with athletic department, but on the lender side, I've, uh, stayed in touch with the entrepreneurship, um, team a lot. So like Chuck Matthews. Yep. And I, I'll go speak at some of his classes. I talk with him fairly often. So, um, definitely stay connected through that entrepreneurship side because of all that I do there. All right.

Grant Freking: (18:23)
Let's close with this. Instead of me being a 37-year-old individual, now, I'm, now, I'm 18, what's two maybe bits of advice you'd you'd give to me as if I'm like a bright-eyed, bushy tailed freshman walking through these buildings to sort of like, calm my anxieties and, and kind of help me get on my path to success here at Lindner?

Dustin Grutza: (18:42)
I, I would, I would tell you that everyone has that fear of going up and saying hi first. Mm-hmm. And asking for something and asking for help or talking to someone even, you know, just that first initial contact, right? Sometimes you're nervous and you're like, the part of the hole. Should I do that? Should I, should I stay at this event? Should I do certain things? Yeah. Once you're past that, it's, it's good, but everybody has it. So like saying hi to someone, maybe they're wanting to say hi to you, but they're nervous too, right? But in, in doing that, I say also reaching out to people who you may want to be mentors and all those things. They may want to be a mentor. They may be looking for those opportunities and care, but not know how to do it. So as an 18-year-old, go reach out to as many people as you can. Go, go to breakfasts, go to networking events, go talk to everyone, especially those who you aspire to be like and who you look up to, because they will help you along the way, and that will help shape you and build the confidence that you need to have the success that you're gonna have in your life.

Grant Freking: (19:41)
Thank you for listening to this episode of Bearcats Mean Business. If today's episode sparked a new idea, challenge your thinking or helped you see your path a little more clearly, be sure to subscribe, leave a review and share the episode with someone in your network. Thanks for being part of the conversation. And remember, real world success begins here at Lindner.

Grant Freking: (00:00)
What does real world success in business actually look like? Welcome the Bearcats Mean business, the official podcast of the University of Cincinnati's, Carl H. Lindner College of Business, where inspiring career stories, honest lessons, and fresh business perspectives from the people building impact in the real world. Come together, tune in for inspiration, practical business insights, and forward-looking thought leadership on how ambition turns into action. And now for today's episode, Kyla, so where are you from and what brought you to Lindner and uc?

Kyla Ward: (00:34)
Yeah. I'm from Englewood, Ohio, about 15 minutes away from Dayton. Um, I was always looking to stay close to home, so uc was always a school that was kind of in my, on my radar. Um, I didn't think I was gonna go to uc or ud. I had it in my mind that like, they were too close. You know, I wasn't gonna do it, but I visited with my mom and she was more convinced of the co-op program than I was at first, but I'm learning she's 90%, 99% of the time she's right. So, um, uh, very inspired, I guess is the right word by that program. And kind of seeing the potential that I had there to, uh, really figure out and hone in on what I wanted to do, which I wasn't certain of. And so after I interviewed for Lindner Business Honors, got into that program. I also am a Cincinnati presidential scholar, and that was something that was really important to me is, um, making sure that I had a way to pay for my education. And then the co-op was kind of a bonus on top of that, and it just ended up, uh, being uc. So that ended up being the right choice. Right.

Grant Freking: (01:30)
And we'll get to this in a second, but you've certainly taken full advantage of the co-op program, which is what we love to see. Yeah. You mentioned your mother. Who were the other influences and what are the moments that have shaped who you are today?

Kyla Ward: (01:40)
Yeah, I am definitely a culmination of all of the, like, amazing people that I've learned from. I think mentors are a big thing in my life, even if it's, I mean, as early as, you know, like elementary school teachers and just certain lessons. Um, I try to take, somebody told me once, like if I went through it, I'm, you know, trying to give you this wisdom so you don't have to. So going through with that perspective has been important for me. Um, so yeah, my mom is the biggest one for sure. Um, don't know what I would do without her. She is, I am her mini me in in every sense of the word. Um, but yeah, definitely learning from the lessons that she, that she has had or, you know, like the different, um, the different mentors I've had in my life. So, um, yeah, but I think to name a few, I mean, I know I had some, like middle school teachers, for instance, uh, shout out to Ms. MCC and Miss Isle. If they listen to this, I'm gonna send it to 'em. , no. But, um, yeah, they're just a, like tiny lessons in life from like, as early as okay, helping me figure out kind of what I'm passionate about and honing some of my interests and all the energy I had into, like, actionable items. And I think I've found that through leadership, and that's just because of the guidance that I've gotten from all the incredible people in my life. So, yeah. Right.

Grant Freking: (02:53)
That's great to hear. What was your original plan when you entered college in the Lindner College of Business? And how does that compare to what you're doing now?

Kyla Ward: (03:00)
Yeah. I don't know if I would say I even really had a full plan. I think I had an idea, so, okay. Um, I was kind of all over the place, to be honest, but I thought I was gonna do biomedical engineering at one point, and then I was really called to graphic design. But overall, I just figured out that I wanted to be in a leadership role in some capacity, so I ended up sticking with operations management. I've changed my major a few times since freshman year in terms of what to pair it with, but I finally landed on operations management and a certificate in business analytics. So kind of figuring out, um, you know, the, the leadership aspect in terms of being able to be a project manager or have some HR role is kind of where I'm, where I've ended up right now.

Grant Freking: (03:44)
Yeah. And for any students that might be listening prospective or current, changing your major is completely normal. Yes.

Kyla Ward: (03:49)
Yeah. One or five or six. Right.

Grant Freking: (03:53)
Let's talk about co-ops. You've had plenty. Um, but your first one with Alta fiber mm-hmm . Was the result of some, um, good networking on, on your, your behalf. Talk me through how you got that one. A

Kyla Ward: (04:04)
Hundred percent. Um, I've been just talking to students. I've talked to a couple students this week, some freshmen, and a big thing, especially when it comes to co-op, that I feel like we don't talk enough about just like follow through. Um mm-hmm. I was doing my SWOT analysis project, which we all do freshman year. Um, I had Cincinnati Youth Collaborative, which was an amazing company to work with. I ended up presenting on the same day that Alta Fiber did. So it was Cincinnati Youth Collaborative and Alta Fiber presenting. I wasn't really thinking much about Alta Fiber, that wasn't the group that I was a part of, but I ended up presenting in front of, um, one of their leaders and she took a special interest in me. Um, she's not at the company anymore, but at the time she asked my professor about me and just, uh, you know, if I was looking for any co opportunities, she ended up sending me her information. We met over winter break, and by that spring semester I had had a co-op and was able to network with a few people from just her kind of taking a special interest in me, which was really great.

Grant Freking: (04:58)
Yeah. Aside from gaining the co-op, what else did you take away from that experience about being a professional?

Kyla Ward: (05:04)
Yeah. I, I think freshman year you learn this a lot, especially in the business school. Um, when you're giving presentations and you're networking, you're at the career fair, et cetera, but you, you never know who's watching. Um, you, uh, I think that, you know, kinda goes back to integrity and making sure that you are, even when people aren't watching, you're kind of, um, you know, making sure that you're holding yourself to the same, um, the same standard, if that makes sense. Yeah. So even though, even though I knew that I wasn't necessarily gonna get a co-op with Cincinnati Youth Collaborative, I think the, um, professionalism and, um, passion that I showed for that project definitely stood out to another company. So, yeah, just, you never know who's watching and make sure that you're showing up your best self as much as you can. Right.

Grant Freking: (05:45)
And you may not have been able to get a co-op with CYC, but they may have known someone if they were impressed by you, like, hey, exactly. In the more traditional corporate world or whomever else be like, Hey, you should look to the student, contact her professor and get in touch with her. That, things like that, that can happen too. For sure. How have you grown and been pushed, uh, through the various co-ops you've had? Uh, let's focus maybe on like, I guess the harder skills and we can talk about the soft skills.

Kyla Ward: (06:06)
Yeah. Um, I think when you go into a co-op, you obviously haven't taken all of your classes yet, so there's a lot of learning. I, I know like the first co-op that I had, even the second one I remember every day, like I was learning at least three new things when it came to, um, the different business practices that all these different companies have. And so I think that was definitely one of the harder parts for me in terms of the work. Um, but yeah, I I

Grant Freking: (06:34)
It's a lot coming at you. Yes.

Kyla Ward: (06:36)
Yeah. Yes. It's a lot coming at you, uh, at once for sure.

Grant Freking: (06:39)
Yeah. And then maybe some of like the softer skills. 'cause I know you have a love of love of leadership, and how have you kind of gleaned lessons from your various co-ops? You know, we talked about Alta Fiber, but you also have done co-op with Trimble, Delta Airlines, GE Aerospace, to name just a few here. Yeah. What are some of the other, I guess, maybe soft skills that you've picked up along the way? Mm-hmm

Kyla Ward: (06:57)
. I think in all of those different co-ops that I've had now, kind of being at the end of them, I'm going back to Delta, but I think I've learned one of the soft skills right now I'm working on, like, maintaining that network. Um, the, the relationships that I was able to foster at these different companies or with different bosses, that kind of thing. Um, working now to make sure that I am not leveraging those well. Yeah. Like leveraging those connections. Yeah. And, um, maintaining them, kind of learning how to use that to my advantage right now, um, to make sure that I am keeping those in my back pocket, if that makes sense. Yeah,

Grant Freking: (07:33)
Absolutely. And when you've gone on these co-op learnings, you're, as we mentioned, taking in a lot, how has that translated or fit into your classroom learnings your more traditional classroom learnings here at Lindner?

Kyla Ward: (07:43)
Yeah, I was just, I just got done with my OM 40 76 class, and I think being able to take, which I didn't know at the time, maybe necessarily everything that went into inventory or, you know, working in a warehouse at Trimble at ge, learning the things I'm learning in class, being able to kind of backtrack and apply them to what I saw or what I experienced at these companies has definitely helped my, my learning and just understanding of certain concepts. So that's been nice to, to have for sure in the classroom.

Grant Freking: (08:13)
Yeah. I'm sure on these co-ops who you were put in some tough and moments where you had to maybe show some that, that grit that we talk about here at Lindner. Yeah. How did you handle those moments of being outside your comfort zone and responding to those professionally?

Kyla Ward: (08:26)
A hundred percent. I I think that's another reason I love co-op is because it does put you in some of those maybe uncomfortable or, um, just unfamiliar professional situations that you have to be able to navigate. So, um, I think I've learned a lot, especially from like my internship at ge, how to advocate for myself. You know, if something isn't working or something doesn't feel that it's necessarily right for you, um, how do you advocate for yourself early enough? One, um, not waiting to ask for help. I think that's one of the things that I've, I've definitely learned at these co-ops. Yeah. Um, and how to one, like have proper documentation of the things that, you know, maybe might be going on or being able to, um, being able to take certain experiences and communicate them professionally is something I, I, I learned a lot too. Um, but it ended up working out and all those lessons, I'm so thankful that I experienced before getting into, you know, a full-time role where, you know, if I did experience them, you know, this is a full-time, like co-op, there's less stakes in it. Um, yeah. So you do, you get to make mistakes and, and learn from them before you do, you know, go into something full-time, which I'm really grateful for.

Grant Freking: (09:34)
Right. And to build off that, the co-ops have also allowed you to figure out what you maybe necessarily don't want to do a hundred percent full time too, which is, uh, the benefit of doing the multiple co-ops, um,

Kyla Ward: (09:44)
Yeah. Arguably maybe even more important. Yeah. Right.

Grant Freking: (09:46)
Yeah. Let's transition to some of your, uh, involvement outside co-op, you know, student organizations. I know that's important to you. Yeah. And why, why is it important to you sort of to not only be involved with the student orgs, but to sort of embrace the leadership portion of, of those organizations?

Kyla Ward: (10:00)
Yeah. I love class. I love learning, but I go to school for the connections and for the impact and leadership I'm able to do in, um, the organizations I'm a part of. It's been that way since, um, high school. I was like the cliche class president, um, created the Black student union at my high school, things like that. So it's always been important to me. Um, I was just thinking about this, about how I think representation is a huge part of it, whether it's, um, just making sure that, you know, we're being rep, those who look like me are being represented in rooms and spaces, um, especially in these bigger organizations, um, that you may be a part of. So that's, I think that's why it's the number one reason why it's so important to me. Yeah. Yeah.

Grant Freking: (10:44)
Awesome. And, um, unfortunately for you, you're closer to the end of your undergraduate career than you are to the beginning. Yeah. When you think about the purpose or direction you want to have in your career, what comes to mind?

Kyla Ward: (10:56)
Yeah. It's so, it's so crazy that I'm already having to think about this. And I, me and my friends are just talking about like, we'll have full-time job offers in the next year, which is, yeah. Couldn't think about it too much, but , um, I think I have been trying to figure out for so long, like, okay, what do I wanna do? But like, specifically like the work that I wanna do. But I think when I, when I look back at my career, I want to, I, it goes back to the representation piece and the impact, like having, being able to, um, show those who look like me, that like, you are supposed to be in like the room where it happened, for lack of better words, but, um, there's a space for you. There's a space for you to be able to make a difference. I want to look back and be able to say that I had a positive impact on, you know, spaces that maybe I didn't think that I would be able to before. So especially in the corporate world, um, I'm not going into finance or, you know, anything like that. But yeah. Um, being in a corporate space and being able to make a positive impact is in helping others. I just ultimately wanna look back and be able to say that. Right. Yeah.

Grant Freking: (12:02)
And, okay, so instead of talking to me, you're now talking to a prospective Lindner student. Mm-hmm . Some 17, 18-year-old from wherever. Yeah.

Kyla Ward: (12:08)
What's

Grant Freking: (12:09)
Your advice to them?

Kyla Ward: (12:11)
I think the biggest advice I have, I think it just comes off of the, the lessons I've learned in the, uh, past semester. But we co-op is such an incredible opportunity, and I think that, um, Lindner does an amazing job of equipping you with the, uh, skills and the things that you need to be able to complete that co-op. I think my advice to future students is to think about, you know, a job is much more than just like the work that you're doing. Where, where are you working? Like, who are you working with? Thinking about those things. And if it doesn't feel, you know, maybe right in your gut or you. You know, the right path for you. Um, trust that. I, there was a co-op, I worked with the admissions team and a few of, you know, the most influential, and people in my life were saying, yeah, well, maybe this isn't, you know, necessarily exactly what you wanna do.

Kyla Ward: (13:00)
It's, you know, didn't pay as much maybe as your last co-op or, you know, this isn't exactly where your, um, like, it's not gonna be as impactful for your career. Right. Yeah. And if I would've took that advice, I wouldn't have met some of the incredible people that I did, and I wouldn't have had Delta, um, my dream co-op at Delta and be been able to make those connections through, through the college that way. So if there's something and you feel like it's calling you, it might not, you know, necess, whether it's an organization or a co-op, um, if you think it's right for you, definitely take that time. It's, I was thinking about this earlier, it's a weird transition of coming from high school into college where you are, you know, your parents and your, um, your guardians or your role models are who you listen to.

Kyla Ward: (13:42)
Like, they're, they're, they're making majority of the decisions for you. Right. And college is a big transition where you start to do that on your own. And sometimes, um, you grow a lot, especially your freshman year. Sometimes you, um, you change, and some things that others may perceive to be the right thing for you isn't anymore. And so I think that's been, that's a hard lesson that you learn in college, but I would give future students just the, the encouragement to, to trust their gut and go for things that they think is right for them, even, you know, maybe if others, others aren't seeing that. Right.

Grant Freking: (14:18)
Thanks for sharing that. I'll get you outta here on this one. Mm-hmm . In 20 years, what do you think you'll remember the most about your time at Lindner?

Kyla Ward: (14:25)
Yeah, the people. The people. A hundred percent. I have met so many incredible people. Um, whether it's faculty or students in Lindner. I, I never come in and don't see someone that, you know, has a smiling face or has a question about like, how I'm doing or, you know, what's kind of going on in my, you know, personal, professional, um, experience so far. So I think, I think that's definitely what the thing that I'm gonna realize. And I've made some lifelong connections for sure that I will, I hope that I still have in, in 20 years, but just the support, um, that I've gotten at Lindner community-wise is something I'll always remember.

Grant Freking: (15:02)
Thank you for listening to this episode of Bearcats Meme Business. If today's episode sparked a new idea, challenge your thinking or helped you see your path a little more clearly, be sure to subscribe, leave a review and share the episode with someone in your network. Thanks for being part of the conversation. And remember, real world success begins here at Lindner. We.

Grant Freking: (00:00)
What does real world success in business actually look like? Welcome the Bearcats Mean Business, the official podcast of the University of Cincinnati's, Carl H. Lindner College of Business, where inspiring career stories, honest lessons, and fresh business perspectives from the people building impact in the real world, come together. Tune in for inspiration, practical business insights, and forward-looking thought leadership on how ambition turns into action. And now for today's episode,

Marianne Lewis: (00:31)
Debbie, it's wonderful to have you here. Thank you so much. Yeah.

Deborah Hayes: (00:34)
Well, Dean, thank you very much for having me here. I find

Marianne Lewis: (00:37)
Your career journey just remarkable and inspiring. You're currently the president and CEO of the Christ Hospital, and you've risen from a student nurse aid to senior executive. And I've read so much about you and it's more fun to talk to you in person. Your strikes me as a career marked by persistence, adaptability, self-directed learning. I think I'd love to start with was your dream always to become CEO? Is this what you expected to be sitting here now? Well,

Deborah Hayes: (01:08)
No, not at all. And if you would have asked me 38 years ago, would I ever be the CEO of the Christ Hospital Health Network, my answer would've been no, because I, um, loved being a nurse and I never really thought I would do anything other than be a nurse. But then over the course of my time at the Christ Hospital and at the Health Network, I was offered opportunities to do different things. And you know, I'm a non-traditional sort of career person because I had a bachelor's and a master's degree from the University of Cincinnati before I ever went back to nursing school. And, um, the reason that I fell in love with healthcare probably goes back to my childhood when I had a, a crush on a, a physician in a television show called Medical Center Okay. , and loved the whole healthcare, uh, environment back then.

Deborah Hayes: (02:11)
But I worked as a nurse's aide in a local nursing home to pay for my college. And so I grew to love taking care of people and I grew to love the whole healthcare profession there. And so after I got a master's degree, I thought, well, gosh, what am I gonna do with that? And decided to go back into healthcare to, um, really pursue my passion and fell in love with it. And then, um, had an opportunity to go into management mm-hmm . And at the time, I had just delivered my son and thought to myself, well, I don't know if I can do this. And I don't know if I'll like it, but I love doing what I'm doing, so I will try. And if I don't like it, I will go back and return to the ICU, which was my first love the intensive care unit. Right. And I ended up loving that experience because I got to see the impact that you could make on more than just the patient you were taking care of. And I watched a team flourish in some really difficult times, and we became very, very successful. And so that's really how my entire management career started.

Marianne Lewis: (03:24)
I think it's fascinating, Debbie, as you even, I'm hearing the way you're talking about it, you've, your, your career has been one of breadth as well as depth in the the health system. I mean, from IT to operations to, uh, and I've, you and I have spoken about this once before, but when I, I asked how you, you expanded to get so much, you built such credibility in your leadership by having seen all the different elements. You told me something about you going in when you first went into it that you knew enough to be dangerous, why'd you take the job? And then how did you learn through it? Those are big changes,

Deborah Hayes: (04:03)
Right? Well, you know, and I, I think, um, as a leader, what I've learned is that, um, a job description is one thing, and what the job actually is is quite another. And so even when I became the chief nursing officer, right, I had a lot to learn. I was a director and then moved into an executive position. And I did that for about 13 years. And I learned something every single day, which is part of the beauty of being able to have different experiences. And, um, when I took over as the Chief Information Officer, it was, uh, in a very interesting time in the health system. And there was a need. And I thought to myself, well, I know enough because I've worked with some of our IT functions. But it, it seemed very exciting to me. And as I was looking forward, I knew that it was going to be something that would be influencing the health system for years to come. And so for me, it was another way to learn about the organization. And, you know, I learned things about our organization during that time that I probably would never have learned if I would've just stayed in my lane. And so I think that's part of leadership is we have to always be willing to learn something new, to stretch our thinking so that we can help lead those who are trying to achieve the strategic plans of our respective organizations.

Marianne Lewis: (05:32)
It truly might be our ultimate skill is the ability to learn. And I, I love hearing that from leaders. I've tried to share that with students. I look at your, your, your, even your CV and see, I mean, you've been to all the major higher education institutions of the region. You are a lifelong learner in a very intentional way. It's more than degrees though. Would you share a little bit more about how you learn and help others learn with you?

Deborah Hayes: (06:00)
Right. Well, you know, I think, um, yeah. My, my father used to always say, are you ever gonna graduate? And I used to say to him, no, I'm not going to, because it's part of my responsibility as a leader to, to try and be the best person that I can be to help lead others in, in the way that they need it to be led. And sometimes I think it's formal education. Mm-hmm . Sometimes I think it is education through reading on your own, through, um, professional seminars, um, through affinity groups where you can hear the different breadth and depth and perceptions of others who may have your same circumstance or quite frankly may have a very different perception of the circumstance that you may be dealing with. And so I have a leadership philosophy that not only do you hope that your organization that you work for will help you grow, but I also believe that we each have a professional responsibility to grow our own.

Marianne Lewis: (07:05)
Well, I could not say, could not agree more. It, it leads me to a question also about leadership. Um, a former president here at uc was named Warren Bennis. Some consider him the founder of the field of leadership. And he had, um, a saying that became really a mantra that we often use here, that leadership is forged in the crucible. That in our toughest times we find our, our greatest strengths. And we kind of dig deep. I mean, I know you've had plenty of those kinds of crucible moments. One that strikes me as, as particularly important was the COVID-19 pandemic. There was no playbook. This was completely unprecedented and an incredible time for learning about yourself, the organization, your team. I wonder if you could share a bit about how you approached something of that magnitude.

Deborah Hayes: (07:58)
Sure. Um, as you said, it was a frightening moment for all of us in healthcare because we are traditionally, um, driven by science. And we are traditionally driven by, uh, trial and error. That becomes the scientific evidence of how you provide healthcare. Well, all of that playbook was gone because there was no science and people didn't really understand what the trajectory of this was going to be. And so you really have to dig down deep right into your own personal acumen. But then you have to rely on your teams and you hope that you have built teams around you that can be, um, vigorous in their efforts and can be creative. Because we were creating, as we went, there were oftentimes when we would meet in the morning chart, a path for the day, and literally hours later we're changing that path because there were external forces that we did not anticipate would be a part of what was going to challenge us either for that day or for that week, or quite frankly, uh, four months to come. And so your teams were having to huddle and try to think creatively about how they might provide that same quality of care, but in a very different way and break norms and rules that we had ingrained in them mm-hmm . For years. And we are now asking them to put that aside, but to still try and make sure that those patients were getting the finest care that they could possibly get under some extremely difficult circumstances.

Marianne Lewis: (09:49)
I I imagine that the culture that you have developed played an enormous role even though there were so many unforeseen elements to that. Um, I was talking with a, a colleague of yours, uh, Steve Rossfeld, um, and he, I was asking him a bit about the culture and, and I've read about it as well. I mean, you are known so much through the Christ Hospital Network for this deep culture of care and commitment. Building culture though, is really challenging and sustaining it probably even more. So h how do you think about that from a culture building side of leadership?

Deborah Hayes: (10:28)
Well, you know, the old adage culture eats strategy is so true. And I think it helps that I grew up in the health system. I've literally done just about every job that you could think of. Sounds like it in the health system. And I have a, a, a great respect for each one of our team members. One of the things that's really important to me is the concept of team. And so we do not call our employees employees, they're called team members. And I use a lot of analogies of team sports and I think about the Super Bowl that just happened last night, right. And two teams that should have never gotten to where they were. And yet one of them comes out victorious. But the other one has a lot and did learn a lot through that entire experience. But every team member within our health network has a key role in delivering on the promise that we've made to the community. Whether it's helping to ensure that we have excellent clinical outcomes or an excellent guest experience, or doing so in an affordable way so that everybody in this community can get world class healthcare right here in greater Cincinnati. And we try to instill that in the team members through reward and recognition, through helping them to grow to be the best that they can be through ensuring that they are celebrated when they do wonderful things. And even when they're celebrated for doing things. That might just seem like that's just part of my job.

Marianne Lewis: (12:03)
It it brings me back to, to your mantra and your emphasis on learning as well, because you also like to look for benchmarks and often outside of healthcare. Yes. I wonder if you could share a bit about how you find those benchmarks and, and give us an example. 'cause I know you have some good ones.

Deborah Hayes: (12:21)
Right. Well, it's important to me to understand if you think about our strategic plan, how do I deliver exactly what I've promised? So if you think about experience, patient and guest experience is different in different industries, but it's yet still the same. So we have brought, uh, the Ritz-Carlton in. We have studied Disney, we have studied the airlines. Now some might say good or bad experience, but it's really about taking the best principles from many service industries and trying to say how does that translate into the healthcare situation? Because people want to be treated as human beings. They want to be, um, they want to feel like people care about what their circumstances, whatever that might be. And they wanna know that people are gonna go to the nth degree to help them have a great experience regardless of what service it is that they are asking to experience.

Marianne Lewis: (13:23)
Yeah, absolutely. And and living up to your promise in that way, is it, it it clearly it is embedded in the culture and that's why I eat strategy for breakfast, right? Because then it's everywhere without having to call upon it, you just count on it. Right.

Deborah Hayes: (13:39)
And, you know, for us, taking care of people's health, which is their most important asset mm-hmm . Is a privilege, but it's a huge responsibility. And um, you know, in order for us to be able to deliver on that promise, we benchmark ourselves against all. Some people say, well, let's just benchmark ourselves against something of our size. And I'm like, no, people do not care how big or how small we are. All they are interested in is their experience. So we need to make sure that we're the best of the best regardless of our size, our shape, our complexity. 'cause that's what people in Greater Cincinnati deserve.

Marianne Lewis: (14:22)
They do. And I think what in the point of greater Cincinnati, you care very much about this city, this region. I see it in your civic leadership. It's something we talk a lot to about with our students, is that great leaders think beyond their own organization because your stakeholders are so much farther reaching. And I have the great privilege of serving on the United Way board with you and seeing your leadership there. I'd love to know more about why your why and because you're very busy. You've got work, family, a life in so many different ways, and you give back to this city in some very big ways and it clearly matters to you.

Deborah Hayes: (15:03)
Well, thank you for recognizing that. Um, I think it goes back to my upbringing. My grandparents really had not very much money, and they were certainly of no means. Farmers came, uh, from a small town in Indiana, and they literally would have given the shirt off their back to anyone. And that translated into my parents who had an incredible work ethic. My father didn't even speak English when they moved to Cincinnati. He spoke German. My mom was a high school graduate, and they taught me early on that it was really important to take care of others around you. And I'm very faithful. I'm Catholic by back, by upbringing. And that was part of our faith. And you know, my, we had one car when I was growing up and, you know, a treat was to have a soda and go to Ponderosa on a Sunday evening.

Deborah Hayes: (15:59)
My mom worked until she was 70. And this, this is the work ethic that she had. When she passed away very suddenly, she had worked at McDonald's her, um, entire work life after my second brother was born. And they closed the McDonald's for the entire three days over the course of her funeral so that all the employees at McDonald's could go and pay their respects. That's beautiful. And that's the kind of household that I was brought up in, is that it's our responsibility to give back to others. And so as I have ascended into different roles, I feel like it is a professional and a personal responsibility to give back to others that probably gave back to me and I didn't even know it. And so being on boards like United Way and Arts Wave and a, a number of other boards that I've been on is really important to me because it's the vibrancy of the community that we serve that will not only impact their health, but also it will impact how well Cincinnati does as a whole.

Marianne Lewis: (17:05)
It is, it's so interwoven and we have a great city. I mean, of, of people who do care, especially at the leadership level. I, it's something that matters a great deal to me. And I want our students to understand that's how great cities thrive.

Deborah Hayes: (17:19)
Well, when you look at per capita in Cincinnati, the philanthropic support that is given to this community to help those who have need is by far and away much greater than in many other cities of our size or even bigger. And it's because of the great legacy of families that live here. And it's all about how do we elevate this city to make it a great place for people to bring their businesses, to bring, uh, students here to study, and then to keep students here once they finish their degrees. I mean, our health system was started through the philanthropic efforts of James Gamble, the founder of Proctor and Gamble, who looked out into the city back in the 1880s and said, I'm gonna build my soap business here and my candle making business with William Proctor. And what do we have to do in order to make this a great place for people to work, people to live, people to play, to raise their families? And here we are, 137 years later.

Marianne Lewis: (18:27)
Isn't that a testament? I love that. Yes. That's wonderful. Yes. Thank you. Um, at the Lindner College of Business, uh, we strive to empower business problem solvers. That's our, our, our mission. And we believe if we can help students, whatever their, wherever they end up in a career or, or a location for that matter, that if they can be great problem solvers, they will have meaningful, impactful lives as well as be successful. And when I, when you think about your own problem solving, particularly when it comes to unforeseen challenges, I wonder if there's an example. I think you, you, we know the legislative challenges. There have been so many dynamic changes. How do you approach a problem? Right. Can you give us a little sense of

Deborah Hayes: (19:14)
That? Well, first of all, I think you have to understand your business, and then you have to really dig into whatever that challenge is going to be and how you might think it's going to affect different aspects of your business. So let's look at some of the legislative challenges just in healthcare. So up through, we'll say July of 2025, no one really anticipated what it's, you can call it the big beautiful Bill or HR one was going to and how it might impact the healthcare system. So now that we know what it is, we are diving deep into what do each of those elements mean? And then really taking a hard look at our industry saying, okay, if this is what the bill means, then how are we going to react to that? And this is where I think ingenuity and creativity has to come into play and using, um, industry leaders to try and help formulate plans for that. But then also thinking about how are we going to transform the way that we are delivering care that will do so in an even more efficient manner, but yet keep the same outcomes or even better outcomes.

Marianne Lewis: (20:34)
I so appreciate the way you, you explain that, Debbie, because I, I hear your systems thinking, you think about how all of the, the parts work together. I mean, I think that part of that is your breadth, but I also think you're, you're thinking beyond healthcare because it could be everything from insurance, right, to the financial sector. How do we make this work so that we don't have unintended consequences that take us the wrong way?

Deborah Hayes: (20:59)
And then really thinking about what are the innovations happening in either our industry or in others when we think about agentic ai? And that won't be the answer for everything, right? But how can we use that to either improve the healthcare experience or really to make people more effective in the jobs that they have? Because one of the things that I think about is

Deborah Hayes: (21:25)
The demographics of the United States, and with the birth rates, the way they are, the workforce of the future in terms of just sheer numbers are not going to be what they are currently today. And with 10,000 Americans going on to the Medicare payrolls, that means 65 and over every day 10,000 people move into that category. The number of people coming behind them is not as great. And so that workforce of the post World War II era, those numbers aren't going to be there. So how can technology help us to deliver the same products with maybe less people? It's not about taking people's jobs away. It's about how do we make people more effective in a place where there may not be that many people to deliver those same services?

Marianne Lewis: (22:16)
I appreciate the way you even described that, Debbie. 'cause I hear you playing a long game and thinking about today, right? Managing that tension of today and tomorrow, right? With the rate of change, whether it's AI legislation, I mean, there's so many changes going on and the rate, we're never gonna slow down. I mean, people have said that before, but I, I wonder what you think that means for leadership. Do you envision leadership or the, the needs of leadership changing in the future?

Deborah Hayes: (22:47)
I think that, uh, leaders are going to have to be, um, extremely creative. I think leaders are gonna have to be incredibly inspiring. And I think that leaders are going to have to be, again, and I say this to our new team members, you are gonna constantly have to challenge yourself to learn about what is coming so that you can apply it to what is happening today in order to influence the trajectory of your respective organization.

Marianne Lewis: (23:20)
Oh, absolutely. You know, we're very proud of our Bearcat alumni, especially someone so inspiring as you, Debbie, if you're sitting in my seat. What would you be telling to students today? If you could give them some advice, looking back, what would you like to share?

Deborah Hayes: (23:37)
Well, the first thing I would say is find your passion. And that passion, quite honestly, may change over time, but find something that you love to do. Because we spend a lot of time at work, we spend a lot of energy at work, and we spend a lot of our human capital at work. So I'd say find your passion first. The second thing I would say is be determined, because oftentimes your path might not be a straight line. My path was not a straight line. Um, and sometimes there are disappointments in that, but stay determined and stay on the path. Um, because if that's your passion, it can happen, but it may not be in the manner in which you think. The third, I would say is to be a lifelong learner. Mm-hmm . And the last, I would say, and I say this to every, um, young person that I mentor, put your hand up and volunteer. When the call goes out about, I need someone to do this. Even if you're not sure if you can do it, put your hand up and try. Because you will learn something every single time you do it. And it will open doors that may never, ever have been opened if you didn't do that.

Marianne Lewis: (24:52)
You just never know.

Deborah Hayes: (24:54)
You, you just never know. But

Marianne Lewis: (24:55)
Putting up your hand, taking the initiative, continuing to learn. So, so many insights. Thank you for your thought leadership as well as your active leadership in this community, certainly at the Christ Hospital Network. Thank you for all you do, Debbie, and for being here today.

Deborah Hayes: (25:11)
Well, thank you Dean. And it's been an honor and a pleasure to be here. Uh, this is a wonderful organization and I'm so happy to be able to help the students.

Grant Freking: (25:20)
Thank you for listening to this episode of Bearcats Mean Business. If today's episode sparked a new idea, challenged your thinking or helped you see your path a little more clearly, be sure to subscribe, leave a review and share the episode with someone in your network. Thanks for being part of the conversation. And remember, real world success begins here at Lindner.

Grant Freking: (00:00)
What does real world success in business actually look like? Welcome the Bearcats Mean Business, the official podcast of the University of Cincinnati's, Carl H. Lindner College of Business, where inspiring career stories, honest lessons, and fresh business perspectives from the people building impact in the real world, come together. Tune in for inspiration, practical business insights, and forward-looking thought leadership on how ambition turns into action. And now for today's episode,

Marianne Lewis: (00:31)
Debbie, it's wonderful to have you here. Thank you so much. Yeah.

Deborah Hayes: (00:34)
Well, Dean, thank you very much for having me here. I find

Marianne Lewis: (00:37)
Your career journey just remarkable and inspiring. You're currently the president and CEO of the Christ Hospital, and you've risen from a student nurse aid to senior executive. And I've read so much about you and it's more fun to talk to you in person. Your strikes me as a career marked by persistence, adaptability, self-directed learning. I think I'd love to start with was your dream always to become CEO? Is this what you expected to be sitting here now? Well,

Deborah Hayes: (01:08)
No, not at all. And if you would have asked me 38 years ago, would I ever be the CEO of the Christ Hospital Health Network, my answer would've been no, because I, um, loved being a nurse and I never really thought I would do anything other than be a nurse. But then over the course of my time at the Christ Hospital and at the Health Network, I was offered opportunities to do different things. And you know, I'm a non-traditional sort of career person because I had a bachelor's and a master's degree from the University of Cincinnati before I ever went back to nursing school. And, um, the reason that I fell in love with healthcare probably goes back to my childhood when I had a, a crush on a, a physician in a television show called Medical Center Okay. , and loved the whole healthcare, uh, environment back then.

Deborah Hayes: (02:11)
But I worked as a nurse's aide in a local nursing home to pay for my college. And so I grew to love taking care of people and I grew to love the whole healthcare profession there. And so after I got a master's degree, I thought, well, gosh, what am I gonna do with that? And decided to go back into healthcare to, um, really pursue my passion and fell in love with it. And then, um, had an opportunity to go into management mm-hmm . And at the time, I had just delivered my son and thought to myself, well, I don't know if I can do this. And I don't know if I'll like it, but I love doing what I'm doing, so I will try. And if I don't like it, I will go back and return to the ICU, which was my first love the intensive care unit. Right. And I ended up loving that experience because I got to see the impact that you could make on more than just the patient you were taking care of. And I watched a team flourish in some really difficult times, and we became very, very successful. And so that's really how my entire management career started.

Marianne Lewis: (03:24)
I think it's fascinating, Debbie, as you even, I'm hearing the way you're talking about it, you've, your, your career has been one of breadth as well as depth in the the health system. I mean, from IT to operations to, uh, and I've, you and I have spoken about this once before, but when I, I asked how you, you expanded to get so much, you built such credibility in your leadership by having seen all the different elements. You told me something about you going in when you first went into it that you knew enough to be dangerous, why'd you take the job? And then how did you learn through it? Those are big changes,

Deborah Hayes: (04:03)
Right? Well, you know, and I, I think, um, as a leader, what I've learned is that, um, a job description is one thing, and what the job actually is is quite another. And so even when I became the chief nursing officer, right, I had a lot to learn. I was a director and then moved into an executive position. And I did that for about 13 years. And I learned something every single day, which is part of the beauty of being able to have different experiences. And, um, when I took over as the Chief Information Officer, it was, uh, in a very interesting time in the health system. And there was a need. And I thought to myself, well, I know enough because I've worked with some of our IT functions. But it, it seemed very exciting to me. And as I was looking forward, I knew that it was going to be something that would be influencing the health system for years to come. And so for me, it was another way to learn about the organization. And, you know, I learned things about our organization during that time that I probably would never have learned if I would've just stayed in my lane. And so I think that's part of leadership is we have to always be willing to learn something new, to stretch our thinking so that we can help lead those who are trying to achieve the strategic plans of our respective organizations.

Marianne Lewis: (05:32)
It truly might be our ultimate skill is the ability to learn. And I, I love hearing that from leaders. I've tried to share that with students. I look at your, your, your, even your CV and see, I mean, you've been to all the major higher education institutions of the region. You are a lifelong learner in a very intentional way. It's more than degrees though. Would you share a little bit more about how you learn and help others learn with you?

Deborah Hayes: (06:00)
Right. Well, you know, I think, um, yeah. My, my father used to always say, are you ever gonna graduate? And I used to say to him, no, I'm not going to, because it's part of my responsibility as a leader to, to try and be the best person that I can be to help lead others in, in the way that they need it to be led. And sometimes I think it's formal education. Mm-hmm . Sometimes I think it is education through reading on your own, through, um, professional seminars, um, through affinity groups where you can hear the different breadth and depth and perceptions of others who may have your same circumstance or quite frankly may have a very different perception of the circumstance that you may be dealing with. And so I have a leadership philosophy that not only do you hope that your organization that you work for will help you grow, but I also believe that we each have a professional responsibility to grow our own.

Marianne Lewis: (07:05)
Well, I could not say, could not agree more. It, it leads me to a question also about leadership. Um, a former president here at uc was named Warren Bennis. Some consider him the founder of the field of leadership. And he had, um, a saying that became really a mantra that we often use here, that leadership is forged in the crucible. That in our toughest times we find our, our greatest strengths. And we kind of dig deep. I mean, I know you've had plenty of those kinds of crucible moments. One that strikes me as, as particularly important was the COVID-19 pandemic. There was no playbook. This was completely unprecedented and an incredible time for learning about yourself, the organization, your team. I wonder if you could share a bit about how you approached something of that magnitude.

Deborah Hayes: (07:58)
Sure. Um, as you said, it was a frightening moment for all of us in healthcare because we are traditionally, um, driven by science. And we are traditionally driven by, uh, trial and error. That becomes the scientific evidence of how you provide healthcare. Well, all of that playbook was gone because there was no science and people didn't really understand what the trajectory of this was going to be. And so you really have to dig down deep right into your own personal acumen. But then you have to rely on your teams and you hope that you have built teams around you that can be, um, vigorous in their efforts and can be creative. Because we were creating, as we went, there were oftentimes when we would meet in the morning chart, a path for the day, and literally hours later we're changing that path because there were external forces that we did not anticipate would be a part of what was going to challenge us either for that day or for that week, or quite frankly, uh, four months to come. And so your teams were having to huddle and try to think creatively about how they might provide that same quality of care, but in a very different way and break norms and rules that we had ingrained in them mm-hmm . For years. And we are now asking them to put that aside, but to still try and make sure that those patients were getting the finest care that they could possibly get under some extremely difficult circumstances.

Marianne Lewis: (09:49)
I I imagine that the culture that you have developed played an enormous role even though there were so many unforeseen elements to that. Um, I was talking with a, a colleague of yours, uh, Steve Rossfeld, um, and he, I was asking him a bit about the culture and, and I've read about it as well. I mean, you are known so much through the Christ Hospital Network for this deep culture of care and commitment. Building culture though, is really challenging and sustaining it probably even more. So h how do you think about that from a culture building side of leadership?

Deborah Hayes: (10:28)
Well, you know, the old adage culture eats strategy is so true. And I think it helps that I grew up in the health system. I've literally done just about every job that you could think of. Sounds like it in the health system. And I have a, a, a great respect for each one of our team members. One of the things that's really important to me is the concept of team. And so we do not call our employees employees, they're called team members. And I use a lot of analogies of team sports and I think about the Super Bowl that just happened last night, right. And two teams that should have never gotten to where they were. And yet one of them comes out victorious. But the other one has a lot and did learn a lot through that entire experience. But every team member within our health network has a key role in delivering on the promise that we've made to the community. Whether it's helping to ensure that we have excellent clinical outcomes or an excellent guest experience, or doing so in an affordable way so that everybody in this community can get world class healthcare right here in greater Cincinnati. And we try to instill that in the team members through reward and recognition, through helping them to grow to be the best that they can be through ensuring that they are celebrated when they do wonderful things. And even when they're celebrated for doing things. That might just seem like that's just part of my job.

Marianne Lewis: (12:03)
It it brings me back to, to your mantra and your emphasis on learning as well, because you also like to look for benchmarks and often outside of healthcare. Yes. I wonder if you could share a bit about how you find those benchmarks and, and give us an example. 'cause I know you have some good ones.

Deborah Hayes: (12:21)
Right. Well, it's important to me to understand if you think about our strategic plan, how do I deliver exactly what I've promised? So if you think about experience, patient and guest experience is different in different industries, but it's yet still the same. So we have brought, uh, the Ritz-Carlton in. We have studied Disney, we have studied the airlines. Now some might say good or bad experience, but it's really about taking the best principles from many service industries and trying to say how does that translate into the healthcare situation? Because people want to be treated as human beings. They want to be, um, they want to feel like people care about what their circumstances, whatever that might be. And they wanna know that people are gonna go to the nth degree to help them have a great experience regardless of what service it is that they are asking to experience.

Marianne Lewis: (13:23)
Yeah, absolutely. And and living up to your promise in that way, is it, it it clearly it is embedded in the culture and that's why I eat strategy for breakfast, right? Because then it's everywhere without having to call upon it, you just count on it. Right.

Deborah Hayes: (13:39)
And, you know, for us, taking care of people's health, which is their most important asset mm-hmm . Is a privilege, but it's a huge responsibility. And um, you know, in order for us to be able to deliver on that promise, we benchmark ourselves against all. Some people say, well, let's just benchmark ourselves against something of our size. And I'm like, no, people do not care how big or how small we are. All they are interested in is their experience. So we need to make sure that we're the best of the best regardless of our size, our shape, our complexity. 'cause that's what people in Greater Cincinnati deserve.

Marianne Lewis: (14:22)
They do. And I think what in the point of greater Cincinnati, you care very much about this city, this region. I see it in your civic leadership. It's something we talk a lot to about with our students, is that great leaders think beyond their own organization because your stakeholders are so much farther reaching. And I have the great privilege of serving on the United Way board with you and seeing your leadership there. I'd love to know more about why your why and because you're very busy. You've got work, family, a life in so many different ways, and you give back to this city in some very big ways and it clearly matters to you.

Deborah Hayes: (15:03)
Well, thank you for recognizing that. Um, I think it goes back to my upbringing. My grandparents really had not very much money, and they were certainly of no means. Farmers came, uh, from a small town in Indiana, and they literally would have given the shirt off their back to anyone. And that translated into my parents who had an incredible work ethic. My father didn't even speak English when they moved to Cincinnati. He spoke German. My mom was a high school graduate, and they taught me early on that it was really important to take care of others around you. And I'm very faithful. I'm Catholic by back, by upbringing. And that was part of our faith. And you know, my, we had one car when I was growing up and, you know, a treat was to have a soda and go to Ponderosa on a Sunday evening.

Deborah Hayes: (15:59)
My mom worked until she was 70. And this, this is the work ethic that she had. When she passed away very suddenly, she had worked at McDonald's her, um, entire work life after my second brother was born. And they closed the McDonald's for the entire three days over the course of her funeral so that all the employees at McDonald's could go and pay their respects. That's beautiful. And that's the kind of household that I was brought up in, is that it's our responsibility to give back to others. And so as I have ascended into different roles, I feel like it is a professional and a personal responsibility to give back to others that probably gave back to me and I didn't even know it. And so being on boards like United Way and Arts Wave and a, a number of other boards that I've been on is really important to me because it's the vibrancy of the community that we serve that will not only impact their health, but also it will impact how well Cincinnati does as a whole.

Marianne Lewis: (17:05)
It is, it's so interwoven and we have a great city. I mean, of, of people who do care, especially at the leadership level. I, it's something that matters a great deal to me. And I want our students to understand that's how great cities thrive.

Deborah Hayes: (17:19)
Well, when you look at per capita in Cincinnati, the philanthropic support that is given to this community to help those who have need is by far and away much greater than in many other cities of our size or even bigger. And it's because of the great legacy of families that live here. And it's all about how do we elevate this city to make it a great place for people to bring their businesses, to bring, uh, students here to study, and then to keep students here once they finish their degrees. I mean, our health system was started through the philanthropic efforts of James Gamble, the founder of Proctor and Gamble, who looked out into the city back in the 1880s and said, I'm gonna build my soap business here and my candle making business with William Proctor. And what do we have to do in order to make this a great place for people to work, people to live, people to play, to raise their families? And here we are, 137 years later.

Marianne Lewis: (18:27)
Isn't that a testament? I love that. Yes. That's wonderful. Yes. Thank you. Um, at the Lindner College of Business, uh, we strive to empower business problem solvers. That's our, our, our mission. And we believe if we can help students, whatever their, wherever they end up in a career or, or a location for that matter, that if they can be great problem solvers, they will have meaningful, impactful lives as well as be successful. And when I, when you think about your own problem solving, particularly when it comes to unforeseen challenges, I wonder if there's an example. I think you, you, we know the legislative challenges. There have been so many dynamic changes. How do you approach a problem? Right. Can you give us a little sense of

Deborah Hayes: (19:14)
That? Well, first of all, I think you have to understand your business, and then you have to really dig into whatever that challenge is going to be and how you might think it's going to affect different aspects of your business. So let's look at some of the legislative challenges just in healthcare. So up through, we'll say July of 2025, no one really anticipated what it's, you can call it the big beautiful Bill or HR one was going to and how it might impact the healthcare system. So now that we know what it is, we are diving deep into what do each of those elements mean? And then really taking a hard look at our industry saying, okay, if this is what the bill means, then how are we going to react to that? And this is where I think ingenuity and creativity has to come into play and using, um, industry leaders to try and help formulate plans for that. But then also thinking about how are we going to transform the way that we are delivering care that will do so in an even more efficient manner, but yet keep the same outcomes or even better outcomes.

Marianne Lewis: (20:34)
I so appreciate the way you, you explain that, Debbie, because I, I hear your systems thinking, you think about how all of the, the parts work together. I mean, I think that part of that is your breadth, but I also think you're, you're thinking beyond healthcare because it could be everything from insurance, right, to the financial sector. How do we make this work so that we don't have unintended consequences that take us the wrong way?

Deborah Hayes: (20:59)
And then really thinking about what are the innovations happening in either our industry or in others when we think about agentic ai? And that won't be the answer for everything, right? But how can we use that to either improve the healthcare experience or really to make people more effective in the jobs that they have? Because one of the things that I think about is

Deborah Hayes: (21:25)
The demographics of the United States, and with the birth rates, the way they are, the workforce of the future in terms of just sheer numbers are not going to be what they are currently today. And with 10,000 Americans going on to the Medicare payrolls, that means 65 and over every day 10,000 people move into that category. The number of people coming behind them is not as great. And so that workforce of the post World War II era, those numbers aren't going to be there. So how can technology help us to deliver the same products with maybe less people? It's not about taking people's jobs away. It's about how do we make people more effective in a place where there may not be that many people to deliver those same services?

Marianne Lewis: (22:16)
I appreciate the way you even described that, Debbie. 'cause I hear you playing a long game and thinking about today, right? Managing that tension of today and tomorrow, right? With the rate of change, whether it's AI legislation, I mean, there's so many changes going on and the rate, we're never gonna slow down. I mean, people have said that before, but I, I wonder what you think that means for leadership. Do you envision leadership or the, the needs of leadership changing in the future?

Deborah Hayes: (22:47)
I think that, uh, leaders are going to have to be, um, extremely creative. I think leaders are gonna have to be incredibly inspiring. And I think that leaders are going to have to be, again, and I say this to our new team members, you are gonna constantly have to challenge yourself to learn about what is coming so that you can apply it to what is happening today in order to influence the trajectory of your respective organization.

Marianne Lewis: (23:20)
Oh, absolutely. You know, we're very proud of our Bearcat alumni, especially someone so inspiring as you, Debbie, if you're sitting in my seat. What would you be telling to students today? If you could give them some advice, looking back, what would you like to share?

Deborah Hayes: (23:37)
Well, the first thing I would say is find your passion. And that passion, quite honestly, may change over time, but find something that you love to do. Because we spend a lot of time at work, we spend a lot of energy at work, and we spend a lot of our human capital at work. So I'd say find your passion first. The second thing I would say is be determined, because oftentimes your path might not be a straight line. My path was not a straight line. Um, and sometimes there are disappointments in that, but stay determined and stay on the path. Um, because if that's your passion, it can happen, but it may not be in the manner in which you think. The third, I would say is to be a lifelong learner. Mm-hmm . And the last, I would say, and I say this to every, um, young person that I mentor, put your hand up and volunteer. When the call goes out about, I need someone to do this. Even if you're not sure if you can do it, put your hand up and try. Because you will learn something every single time you do it. And it will open doors that may never, ever have been opened if you didn't do that.

Marianne Lewis: (24:52)
You just never know.

Deborah Hayes: (24:54)
You, you just never know. But

Marianne Lewis: (24:55)
Putting up your hand, taking the initiative, continuing to learn. So, so many insights. Thank you for your thought leadership as well as your active leadership in this community, certainly at the Christ Hospital Network. Thank you for all you do, Debbie, and for being here today.

Deborah Hayes: (25:11)
Well, thank you Dean. And it's been an honor and a pleasure to be here. Uh, this is a wonderful organization and I'm so happy to be able to help the students.

Grant Freking: (25:20)
Thank you for listening to this episode of Bearcats Mean Business. If today's episode sparked a new idea, challenged your thinking or helped you see your path a little more clearly, be sure to subscribe, leave a review and share the episode with someone in your network. Thanks for being part of the conversation. And remember, real world success begins here at Lindner.

Grant Freking: (00:00)
What does real world success in business actually look like? Welcome the Bearcats mean business, the official podcast of the University of Cincinnati's, Carl H. Lindner College of Business, where inspiring career stories, honest lessons, and fresh business perspectives from the people building impact in the real world come together. Tune in for inspiration, practical business insights, and forward-looking thought leadership on how ambition turns into action. And now, for today's episode.

Grant Freking: (00:30)
Shawn, you were born in San Diego, you went to high school in North Carolina, and you've lived across the US and multiple countries. How did moving so often shape the way you see people, places, stories?

Shawn Peterson: (00:45)
Yeah. So I think that moving around at an early age has really helped form my, um, mental way of seeing the world and processing things. I think that has helped me be able to adapt fast and quickly compared to a lot of kids my age. And I think that that has helped with the way of not having a fear of moving forward with things that I have ambitions towards.

Grant Freking: (01:09)
Sure. Um, and I know your family is really important to you. Who in your family would you say has most influenced you today? ?

Shawn Peterson: (01:16)
The person that has most influenced me to this day is probably my grandmother and my mother. Okay.

Grant Freking: (01:22)
And why is that?

Shawn Peterson: (01:24)
So for one, my grandmother, she has really shaped the way that I, you know, handle my photography work. I think that when it comes to her, she, she passed away before I had a lot of memories of her and experiences with her, but it has helped me realize the worth of memories and how fast they can kind of, you know, quickly fade. And with my mother, you know, she's always been a very supportive person of what I do. Whether she knows, you know, or understands what I do. Exactly. It doesn't matter. She's always gonna be there and stick by my side. So she's a very loving woman and I respect her a lot for that. Okay.

Grant Freking: (01:59)
And you mentioned photography, which is part of why we're here today. You were gifted a camera at 16. Were you already hooked on photography then, or that was sort of that sort of kickstart there?

Shawn Peterson: (02:08)
Yeah, so when, actually when I was 16, I did not even know if photography existed, you know? Okay. I've always had an interest in editing videos, you know, doing a lot of graphic design work. But at the age of 16, I was going through a little bit of a, a stump in life. I had a little bit of negativity going on when it came to school, sports, all the kind of things that teenagers go through, right? Yep. Of course. And, um, I remember one day coming home from school, a little bit upset, crying to my mother. I'm a very emotional person and she, you know, without hesitation asked me, you know, are there any hobbies that you're interested in? And I said, you know, I don't know, maybe photography. And without hesitation, she quickly said, all right, let's go. And we head straight to the best buy. And she got me the first camera that she saw.

Grant Freking: (02:58)
And what did that mean to you?

Shawn Peterson: (02:59)
Uh, you know, that really showed, you know, how much my mother really supports me, even though there are times when you might think that you're, you know, your parent, you know, doesn't love you and you're being very exaggerative about that. Yeah. It really shows that, you know, they're willing to do whatever it takes to, you know, help you achieve your goals and be happy in life. And, um, just going out there and, you know, she didn't even look at the price tag. Wow. She asked, you know, the staff, what's the best, you know, beginner camera, I can get 'em. And then we walked out and first thing she said is, I love you. You know? So, um, that really shows the type of person that she is. Yeah.

Grant Freking: (03:32)
That's amazing. That's transition to actually how you ended up here in this physical location, Lindner Hall where we're at right now. When you were looking for a college experience, um, what were you kind of looking for? What seemed, what was gonna be a kind of a good fit for you in, in your eyes?

Shawn Peterson: (03:46)
So when it came to looking for colleges, the thing that really was my main priority was what school can change who I am as a person. And I think growing up in a town in North Carolina, next to the beach in a small town, a lot of people say stagnant and stay in that one area. And I was afraid of being that person who would, you know, be there for the next 40 years. I see. I wanted a lot of growth and I think coming to a school that prides itself on its business aspect in the co-ops, which is something that I think, you know, needs to be out there at more schools, I think that was a real, you know, benefit, you know, and a big factor of why I chose this school. You know, I think that this school can support me and my goals and give me the knowledge that I need to succeed in what I do. And I know that this school can stand behind my back and I can represent this with, you know, full confident and pride.

Grant Freking: (04:38)
Yeah. And so the real world experience kind of aspect that co-ops kind of bring, that was like an one of the main draw for you. Um, what, what were some, were there any other traits or programs that kind of stuck out to you? Or was it just like the real, the kind of the overall arc of the real world experience experience?

Shawn Peterson: (04:52)
So one of them was not really a trait of the school, it was more so, um, you know, something that ties back to my mother, right? Okay. She had me at the age of 18. Okay. And she didn't really have a lot of opportunities after that because she has to, you know, fend for a kid. And she's a Cincinnati native. And so while I've traveled and lived around the world, you know, she grew up primarily in Cincinnati and she never had the chance to go to school. So I figured, you know, might as well rep as University of Cincinnati, because at the end of the day, a student of the University of Cincinnati, their family's also part of the University of Cincinnati.

Grant Freking: (05:25)
Absolutely. Let's talk about your business, Shawnie's Cinema. When did you decide to go into business for yourself?

Shawn Peterson: (05:33)
So that was a kind of a no brainer for me when it comes to creative stuff and you know, the generation that we're growing up in, I believe that a lot of the creative things you can do, you can learn online. We have YouTube, we have TikTok now to look at courses and how to do certain things. And I think that when it comes down to running a business, 90% of it is not the work that you do, it's the knowledge that you have to actually operate it. Mm. And I can easily, I can teach anybody how to pick up a camera in less than a day. But teaching them the skills to run the business smoothly and operate is something that I can't learn unless I come to University of Cincinnati. And I think that this school is helping me currently at this moment take those skills and apply it into the work that I do.

Grant Freking: (06:21)
Can you think of like some specific examples? Maybe if it's some, we talked a little bit about what classes you are you're in today before you, you came to the podcast studio. What are some, maybe some specific things that are kind of ticking those boxes and that you're implementing or being able to implement to your business like right away?

Shawn Peterson: (06:36)
Yeah. So one of the classes that has really helped me recently was financial accounting. Okay. I'm taking managerial accounting right now, and that has really helped me with the finance aspect of it. Sure. Handling all the, you know, the paperwork, the accounting side, the budgeting when it comes to doing my work. Because if you don't handle the accounting, you're gonna kind of run out of the money. And it's helped me with a lot of the travel work that I've done where I've had to go outta state to do destination engagement sessions and other type of work such as weddings and proposals.

Grant Freking: (07:07)
So I'm curious what kind of like business problem, or maybe it was just a personal goal, were you trying to solve for yourself when you started your photography business? Or was it a vacancy maybe you saw in the field for, to fulfill for others?

Shawn Peterson: (07:21)
Yeah. So by vacancy in the field of like the wedding industry, yeah. It was primarily the feeling that the clients aren't getting somebody to take the photos that have a deep connection towards them and the event that's going on. Mm. A lot of the times when you get a photographer for a certain event or just like family photos, it kind of feels just like a client to, you know, personnel feeling. Yeah. Like

Grant Freking: (07:46)
Trans transactional.

Shawn Peterson: (07:47)
Yeah. Transactional. And that's not something that I really, you know, enjoy. I'm there for the people at the end of the day, it's their biggest day and you don't want to ruin it. Mm-hmm . And so when I go into a wedding, it's, you know, I'm their best friend. I've learned a lot about them before even the wedding happens, all their family members where they had their first kiss, you know, so my goal is to make their day be memorable. And when they're able to look back at that photo and realize and remember that exact scenario and that feeling that it invokes that, that means my mission was completed, that I did my job properly. Yeah.

Grant Freking: (08:22)
Absolutely. Do you remember getting your first client?

Shawn Peterson: (08:24)
Yes. So my first client was when I was in North Carolina. Okay. And it was honestly a very nerve wracking, you know,

Grant Freking: (08:33)
Well, naturally, yeah,

Shawn Peterson: (08:34)
Yeah. Event. And how it happened was it was actually my counselor. Oh, okay. And so my counselor, you know, said, you know, I know you take photos for people for free and stuff, and I was wondering if you could do a family photo session for me. And I was like, okay, sure. We will do it on the beach. It's nice. Unbeknownst to me though, that it was actually a pregnancy reveal. Oh. And that she was having a baby. And if I knew that, I probably would've said no. But she knew that I needed that little step forward to push me to venture out there and, you know, tackle something that I'm not comfortable with. And it has really helped me be able to engage with other people and keep continuing to push my work forward.

Grant Freking: (09:14)
And how, how did that go?

Shawn Peterson: (09:16)
It was, um, a lot of it of haywire in my head. You know, a lot of things jumbled around thinking, I need to do this, I need to do that. But at the end of the day when I just calm down and I enjoy the moment with them, I think that's what really matters to them. Mm. They don't necessarily care about the poses and how, um, you, you know, handle it. They're more so there for the vibes and if the photos turn out nice and, you know, they recall he was a great photographer, we had a fun time with him. Yeah.

Grant Freking: (09:41)
Getting an authentic experience, which I think is what you're trying to convey too. Mm-hmm . So how do you balance operating a business full-time and being a student full-time? How was that like for you?

Shawn Peterson: (09:52)
I wouldn't say there's necessarily a, um, a way to balance it. I think that there's priorities. Okay. And so at the end of the day, you need to sit down and think what needs to get done, if there's a high priority to it, priority to it, or if there's a low priority. And I've always put myself a student first and then a business second. And that's also been applied, you know, in earlier aspects of my life, I was student first, athlete second. Mm-hmm . You know, my coaches always, you know, you know, put that into our souls and, you know, preach that all the time. Right. And so I always make sure, you know, the work is done first when it comes to school, and then we handle the business side of things. Now, obviously if it comes to a wedding and it's a huge importance, it's their biggest day, we need to sit down and look at our schedule and see what we can work and move around. Right.

Grant Freking: (10:41)
What's the hardest part about running a business right now?

Shawn Peterson: (10:44)
I think the hardest part is the limitations when it comes to age. That's something that a lot of people don't necessarily realize. Um, when you don't real, when you don't manage a business, is that there's things that I cannot do and there's, um, things that I can't prevent. You know, when it comes to transportation or lodging, when I go for long distance, you know, events, I can't rent a, a driver like a

Grant Freking: (11:09)
Car. Right. Yeah. You gotta be 25, I think, to do that in Ohio. Yeah.

Shawn Peterson: (11:12)
So I have to rely on Uber, and that's kind of an issue in some rural prices where there's only like three Uber drivers. Yeah. So I think that's one of the biggest limitations is being able to safely get to where I need to be and to be able to move around.

Grant Freking: (11:27)
Sure. And what's, like, what are you enjoying the most right now about your business?

Shawn Peterson: (11:31)
I think the thing that I'm enjoying the most about my business is honestly interacting with new people. Okay. I think that that's something that I have been trying to work on since I've moved here from North Carolina, is just interacting with a lot more people and having a good time. And I think that, you know, like I told you, as long as you can make this session feel amazing and great for them, it's gonna work out amazing. And I had a good time all my sessions and you know, my clients, they loved me. They all had a good time as well. So just interacting with people, having a good time is what definitely makes my job feel special and it doesn't feel like a job.

Grant Freking: (12:06)
Right. Um, your business, the photography business is one that's based on feedback. Um, your clients are probably consist, are consistently weighing in on your work. I'm sure most of it's positive, but how, how do you manage that? Um, kind of taking in like, I guess the compliments and like patting yourself on the back and also maybe receiving comments that maybe look may maybe make you look inward and be like, all right, I have room to work on this.

Shawn Peterson: (12:28)
Yeah. So how I handle feedback is I always take it in a open, you know, I'm an open-minded person. Mm-hmm . I always take it with, um, you know, care. I'm always looking for feedback, you know, I help, it helps you with growth. Um, that being said, I am a very independent person and I like to test things out before moving with, you know, suggestions. And a lot of the times, you know, being at a young age, um, it backfires. There's a lot of backfiring moments. And my mother, if she was here today, she could say the same thing, like I told you so, you know. Yeah. But I think that's great because it has really helped me become a more of an independent person and be able to learn, you know, I am at that stage in my life where I'm able to make risks. I'm able to fail. I'm not at a, you know, absolutely. A later point in my life where I can't, you know, afford to take those risks.

Grant Freking: (13:16)
Yeah. Try things out. Mm-hmm . Yeah. Absolutely. Do you deal with self-doubt at all? And if so, how do you push through it?

Shawn Peterson: (13:22)
Yeah, so I do deal with self-doubt, even though I am a really confident person. Mm. I think it really stems down to, you know, being in that situation where, let's say I'm in a wedding, right? I'm a 19-year-old photographer in an industry that is typically owned by older people, you know? Yeah. And so it's pretty easy during the wedding with a wedding party, we're having great fun time, and then it comes down to after the ceremony where there's a hundred people there and you need to take photos and control and be a leader. And I don't necessarily take it as a worrisome, you know, weight, I take it more as a responsibility and that they respect me and that they chose me to take control and lead their biggest day of their life.

Grant Freking: (14:04)
Yeah. Get through all those different family photos and everything they want on their checklist. Yeah. Uh, you mentioned, uh, the sort of the transportation issues that you run into. What's sort of a, a shooter travel experience that presented like maybe other unique challenges for you? I know you mentioned, you know, Vermont, uh, and a pre and a pre-conversation we had, but what, what other things come to mind there?

Shawn Peterson: (14:24)
Yeah, so I mean, if we can go to Vermont for this story actually, um, in case people, you know, haven't been to Vermont, it's kind of a rural area, right? Yeah. And so my, my client, you know, he wanted to take photos at Quee State Park, which is right near, you know, New Hampshire and, uh, Lebanon, that little border Okay. Of Vermont. And so when I fly into there, it was all going smooth and everything we had, I prepped everything, the travel, the logistics, the budgeting, you name it. However, the thing I did not account for was it's a rural area with no Ubers. It's not like Cincinnati where you can get an Uber in five seconds. Mm-hmm . You have to plan for it a day before. So it's nine 30 at nighttime. I can't rent a car and I'm struggling. I'm thinking, well, I might have to walk 15 minutes to get to the hotel. You know? So I think that that was a real opener, uh, and a good experience, you know, to, um, take forward and learn from that, that, you know, I need to, um, be more precise and I need to be more focused on the things that I can't control and figure out solutions to work around that. Yeah.

Grant Freking: (15:30)
It's like all aspects of, of the trip, right? Yeah. Mm-hmm . Let's close with a couple of thoughts on, um, a more advice I guess for, um, from you to maybe other Lindner students that are maybe looking to take the leap to have an idea about starting a business. Um, maybe they even have their own business. What are some like top tips you would give them? Um, I guess maybe besides just like going for it and like following your passion, what are top tips that you maybe you kind of have learned now, but like in the early days, kind of like stumped you a little bit?

Shawn Peterson: (16:01)
Okay. Besides those few, you know, generic kind of answers, I think that you should honestly start before you're ready. Mm-hmm . I think that's something that's not really said a lot. A lot of people can say, you know, um, your dreams don't move without you. And I think that's true and you need to start before you're ready. And that's something that, um, Stephen Pressfield has said. That's his quote, his famous quote, start before you're ready. Mm. You know, if you start before you're ready, good things will happen. And I think that's something that, you know, really insinuates that you shouldn't be afraid to start, especially when you have the opportunity to take risks. Like I said earlier, if you just are so, if you're so hung up on, you know, the qualifications for that job, then you're never gonna actually get there. Because at the end of the day, it's all about reps, reps, reps, reps. And that helps you get that experience. And so you might as well get those reps starting out before you even learn, even are even qualified for the job. Yeah. That way you can learn the ups and downs of it. And if you actually even like the job.

Grant Freking: (17:02)
Yeah. Give it, give it a try. Yeah. Yeah. Get those, get that some of that real world experience.

Shawn Peterson: (17:06)
And it's okay if it fails, you know, we're all gonna have opportunities to grow from that. I fail, you know, I failed a million times. We've all failed and we've had those type of moments, but it's really about how you can come back from that. And you know, your parents have probably told you that as well. It's, you know, it's how you get back up, you know, and I think that's a great thing to, you know, carry forward is, you know, to start Before you're ready.

Grant Freking: (17:29)
Thank you for listening to this episode of Bearcats Mean Business. If today's episode sparked a new idea, challenged your thinking or helped you see your path a little more clearly, be sure to subscribe, leave a review and share the episode with someone in your network. Thanks for being part of the conversation. And remember, real world success begins here at Lindner.

Grant Freking: (00:00)
What does real world success in business actually look like? Welcome the Bearcats Mean business, the official podcast of the University of Cincinnati's Carl H. Lindner College of Business, where inspiring career stories, honest lessons, and fresh business perspectives from the people building impact in the real world come together. Tune in for inspiration, practical business insights, and forward-looking thought leadership on how ambition turns into action. And now for today's episode,

Grant Freking: (00:32)
Phil, tell me about like your entrepreneurship origin story. Where can you trace that back to, um, in your younger years? 'cause you started really early on, I think, even earlier than even most entrepreneurs do.

Phil Santoro: (00:44)
Yeah. So my journey started really with an obsession for building and helping people. And at the age of 12, I built a computer for my grandparents as a gift. I had so much fun that I decided to build a computer for myself, mostly to play age of Empires. And so, you know, I was the youngest one in this gaming community. Naturally I was the most tech savvy, and so I was the one to set up the forum for us to all talk on. And if you remember, back in the early two thousands, forums were the center of the internet. I mean, everyone was on forums, and yet they were incredibly difficult to set up. You had to be technical enough to know PHP and MySQL. You had to buy a domain name and, and web hosting. And so my thesis was remove all the friction and then create a platform where people could sign up for free.

Phil Santoro: (01:33)
And I started my first company when I was 13 in 2002 that did just that people could sign up for a forum. And then in 2007, that's when I launched free forums.org, um, when I was at Madeira High School. And that was an improvement on the platform, you know, more features, easier to use. I spent a lot of time just thinking through every single thing that people needed to talk on the internet. And it took off instantly. We had all kinds of forums. The the largest was a Twilight Moms form where a bunch of moms would talk about the Twilight Movie series, but we had cyclists, gamers, um, sports leagues, any, anything you could think of right. Was on Free Forums. And yeah. At, at our peak we were doing over 125 million monthly page views, which this was pre-social media. That's incredible. Pres smart phones. This, this was a lot of traffic. And here I was in my parents' basement in Madeira, , you know, operating this large platform. And so this really taught me my first lesson about business, which is you take a technical problem and you solve it with an easy product, people will use it.

Grant Freking: (02:42)
So what was like, did you have a template you were working off of? Was you started your, even your journey with Free Forums, did you have like a template or something, an idea in mind? Or were you, was it more learning as you go in this process?

Phil Santoro: (02:51)
Yeah, I completely, first principle is learning by doing. And I didn't even start out to run a business. I started out because I wanted to help people make forums. And it was, it was pretty cool to do that on the internet, you know, back then. So really by, by 2002, there wasn't a way to make money on the internet with forums. That monetization came much later. And eventually in 2008, that's when Google Ads came out. So you could run ads on your website for the first time, right? To make income. Um, but originally it was just to do something cool and, and help people.

Grant Freking: (03:28)
Right. And you spoke earlier about sort of the vacancy you saw with for something as, you know, forgive me as simple as, as a forum mm-hmm . Is that something that you, even going back to your even younger years before you built your first computer for your grandparents starting to see when you started Stu, when you studied and zoned in on something was like, all right, how can I, what's the missing part of this? And how could I possibly make it better?

Phil Santoro: (03:51)
I, I think so, but I think it was more foundational for me. I just like building. Yeah, okay. And I think there's a very unique part of entrepreneurship where you have an idea, you write it down on a piece of paper, and these ideas could come at 2:00 AM or or 2:00 PM during launch any hour of the day, you write it down on a piece of paper, you execute it, you build it, and then you watch millions of people interact with it and enjoy it. And you get a rush from that. That is very unique to entrepreneurship. And, and I picked up on that early. Sure.

Grant Freking: (04:22)
So fast forward a couple years, you're getting ready to pick a, a college, and I'm sure you had many options. Um, and you had, you're also unique in the fact that not many students were like you and had successful business ventures. What made, um, what were the factors that led you down to staying close to home and choosing the Lindner College of Business? In University of Cincinnati,

Phil Santoro: (04:43)
I was living a double life. You know, during the day, , I was a student at Madeira, struggling with biology exams and playing baseball. And then at night I was leading this global forum platform and conferencing with my team until 3:00 AM So I, I knew I wanted to stay somewhere around Cincinnati because I had my business there. I had infrastructure, my computer development, server advisors, mentors, uh, my bank, you know, all the physical component. So I knew I wanted to stay around there, but it was really meeting Dr. Chuck Matthews in the entrepreneurship department. I met with him, had a great conversation, was really impressed by his vision for entrepreneurs and, and student entrepreneurs specifically. And so he was the one that really put it, um, uh, sort of decided, you know, I decided I wanted to go to uc after meeting him.

Grant Freking: (05:37)
And so did he appealed to that part of you that wants to build and scale?

Phil Santoro: (05:40)
Yep, exactly. And then I moved into uc. I actually had two dorm rooms, um, one for me to sleep in. I was at Stratford Heights and then UPA and I had one dorm room to sleep in and one for my business. I had my development server in there and all my computers. And so in the morning before class i'd, I'd roll out of bed, go to the dorm room next door, you know, check on my business, make sure nothing had broken overnight, and then would walk to class. And I, I still remember to this day how hot that room got because they're, you know, they're tiny rooms and I had all this equipment in there, so it, uh, it would heat up.

Grant Freking: (06:16)
What was the reaction for, I guess, your, your fellow classmates and also maybe your other professors that weren't Chuck when you told 'em about this sort of actual business you were running in addition to being a student?

Phil Santoro: (06:26)
Yeah, I think I kept a lot of it private until I sold Free Forums. Okay. So there, there was an article in the Cincinnati Enquirer. So a lot of high school students knew about it at that time, but I kept most of it private. I was just heads down building. Uh, and then when I came to uc, I, I, there were so many great professors that I would meet with during office hours and learn from because I had this unique ability to learn something in the classroom and then apply it literally that next, that next day, maybe even the same day in my business. And I found that very valuable. I, I had a lot of great relationships with professors, and I think they ultimately realized that, um, I was interested in the subject, not just getting a good grade in the class. And so they were willing to help out. Sure.

Grant Freking: (07:15)
And you decided as a sophomore to exit Free Forums. So the first thing that you actually created, how was, was that difficult or did you know you were wanting to move on to something else? How, what was that process like as your first exit?

Phil Santoro: (07:26)
I was burnt out by my sophomore year of college. You know, they say, at least for me at the time, they said, uh, grades, social life and sleep. And you can pick two of those as a college student, except I had a business to add into that, and I could still only pick two. And so I was burnt out. I was tired. I had been working seven years plus school at that point, and I just wanted to be a normal student for, for part of my college. Um, and so I, I sold Free Forums to a public company crowd Gather in, uh, spring of 2010. And that was, that was a big milestone for me. It, it was financially great, but more importantly gave me my time back and I got to really enjoy the last two years at uc.

Grant Freking: (08:14)
What was your overall experience like as a, as a student entrepreneur at this time? Maybe also looking at other things, even be maybe before you an you exited free forums and then maybe after free forums. What did you do with the time? I guess you had left before you got like a, a real job, so to speak.

Phil Santoro: (08:29)
Yeah, it was, it's, it wasn't as glamorous as it sounds talking through it because, um, I was just sort of heads down on the business and grades, so it was definitely challenging, but I would say the ability to apply what I was learning was very cool. And what Lindner gave me was a more structured approach to business. I had the first principles, I, I was running a business, but I didn't know how to read a balance sheet, for example. Mm. And there's actually a, a funny story. Uh, professor Nugent, corporate Finance, incredible class. I learned a lot from it. So we do this project at the end of my senior year where a company's going through a transaction. You have to make a balance sheet, reflect that transaction and model it out in Excel. And I'm, I'm here post Free Forums just wanting to dive in and make the perfect model. I had time, I had the experience of going through an exit. I wanted to work in finance. I'm like, this is it. And I worked for weeks on this. And he, he said at the beginning, he said, balance sheets are called balance sheets because they balance assets have to equal liabilities and equity. If you don't balance your balance sheet, I will give you a zero on this. And some of you will not balance your balance sheet. So he said that over and over and over. I bet you can tell where this is going. I

Grant Freking: (09:54)
Have an incl

Phil Santoro: (09:55)
, so I work on this and I'm getting the perfect model dialed in, and I'm, I'm working very hard. Uh, I get to the, the very last step before I submit it, and I wanna make one tiny change. And after I do that change perfect model, I, I, I feel like on my side, so I submit it, balance sheet doesn't balance. And he was so disappointed. I was, I was more disappointed. Um, but luckily he didn't give me a zero on it, and other students did that, but he, he knew exactly that that would happen. And that's the type of knowledge that you learn in school that now to this day, I look at a lot of balance sheets and I will never ever forget that lesson. Uh, and so having that, that ability to make mistakes and learn from things in school and then apply that later, really gave me that more formal business acumen education that I didn't get running Free Forums.

Grant Freking: (10:54)
Sure. It sounds like Lindner almost helped fill in some of the gaps you didn't have from running a business. What were some, any other examples you can think of of like, you know, I didn't even experience this sort of thing, um, with Free Forums, but I'm experiencing it now in an actual classroom.

Phil Santoro: (11:10)
I'd say all the soft skills. Yeah. Um, you know, I was in student government, director of technology, tried to get involved with campus honors program and all of that. And just when you're online, like I was in my parents' basement on Skype at the time, you don't learn the actual soft skills, leadership, public speaking, just the whole gamut. You don't learn that stuff. So getting that through a different avenue is very important because when you start a company, you have to wear all the hats. Literally, you're wearing all of them until you hire people to do those things. And so, whether it's finance or accounting or BI or business law or public speaking, all of these more soft skills that you don't pick up until you're in a group with people working on them, uh, was very helpful to have.

Grant Freking: (11:59)
Did you know you needed all those skills at the time? Or is it, were you just kind of take them in stride when you kind of learn them?

Phil Santoro: (12:07)
I think one of the benefits of starting young with a business is you don't know what you don't know. Mm. And so you sort of just rush into it and you do it and you don't think too much about it, which I think is actually a good thing because most people overstate the risk, and that's why they don't want to take the leap. So I don't think at the time I was thinking about that until I was in the moment and going, wow. Public speaking, like, this is going to be useful later. Right. Um, so most of that came while I was doing it.

Grant Freking: (12:38)
Were you actively, like, mapping out your future, you know, and thinking like, oh, we'll get to your next step after Lindner here in a second. Were you actively mapping out, like, this is where I wanna be, in your five years after graduation, 10 years after graduation, having, you know, already founded and sold your own company? Were you the type of person that's planning out that far in advance?

Phil Santoro: (12:56)
It's easy to look back at my resume and think that everything just sort of lined up perfectly since I was 12. And that's definitely not what happened. Um, I had wanted to work for Google after I sold Free Forums. My, my sophomore year. I had wanted to work for Google since I was a kid, since I built my first computer. And so finally senior year throw in my application and I waited and I waited and I waited and never heard back, no rejection, just didn't hear back. And, and I thought, well, okay, I guess I'm not going to Silicon Valley. And so I started going down my option B, which was law school. I wanted to work in intelligence for the FBI wanted to get my master's in finance and become a lawyer, which would have increased my odds. And then for reasons I don't really know, I decided to apply for Google again, same job, same role, same application package. Three months after I just had applied and I heard back the next day and, and they flew me to California. I had my interview and ended up getting a job there. And that was, that was a very important lesson for me on just resolve, if you want something just because you're told no, or, or maybe they just ignore you, that doesn't mean that you can't ask again, what's, what's the worst thing that can happen. Once

Grant Freking: (14:18)
You were settled in Google, did you ever bring this story up to anyone about like, Hey, I never heard from you guys the first time and I suddenly, you know, you know,

Phil Santoro: (14:25)
I, I didn't, but having worked there, I know what happened. It's just big company. Yeah. Problems. It, no one, it wasn't even necessarily about me. It was that there were, there weren't roles at that time. They have specific hiring windows, and when they reopened that window, nobody's going back to look at the past applications from the last four months. They're just looking at the applications coming in now, because there's enough of those. So I, I sort of understand how big companies function now, but at the time it was, it was a MiiR it seemed like a miracle.

Grant Freking: (14:58)
Yeah. That's like really pertinent I think, for any students, whether the current or just graduated that are looking for co-ops or Yes, yes. Some jobs is like, just because you hear no, that window still open, you may have another opening. Yeah, absolutely. So you, you go to Google, you spend two plus years as a growth strategist. Is, was this, did the position you ended up being in, in Google, sort of meet your, I guess, personal expectations that you had when you were younger that you, you mentioned you wanted to always be at Google. Did those, did those coalesce at the end?

Phil Santoro: (15:24)
Yes, it was, it was very intimidating, which I wasn't expecting because Google is just operating at a different level of scale than, than any other company, maybe even globally. And so I'm there as a recent graduate managing tens of millions of dollars of ad spend for these advertisers that are growing with Google. And I'm sitting there after I moved across the country from uc, going, why aren't adults doing this job? I mean, seriously, there's tens of millions of dollars. Why, why am I doing this job? And what I realized is sometimes technology is moving so quickly or things are changing that the college graduate that's hungry, willing to grind for 60 hours a week, they are the right people to work on a specific challenge or problem. And I think that's very applicable to the concerns. Now with ai, there's a lot of concerns about AI and, and how will college students and college graduates, you know, fare and in AI first world? And I think the way I think about it is, if you're in college, you graduate and you embrace ai, you, you learn as much as you can. Those are the people that will pave the future, um, just like it was, you know, at the time. Mm-hmm .

Grant Freking: (16:38)
What were some memorable challenges or obstacles that you encountered that sort of, if I, I mentioned that to you, that sort of popped straight to your mind from your time at Google?

Phil Santoro: (16:48)
For me, it was the scale, just everything. Everything was larger. And so you would work on something and the, the stakes were just higher than you were used to or maybe even comfortable with. You really had to be comfortable being uncomfortable and, and just the scale, uh, the ability to learn on the fly, uh, but also know that, you know, millions of dollars were at stake if, if you made a mistake. I think that's, that's a very valuable lesson that I took and then applied it later when, when I went on to start Wilbur Labs.

Grant Freking: (17:22)
When you got to Google, were you, would you say you were already comfortable being uncomfortable or is it something you had to learn?

Phil Santoro: (17:28)
I'd say I'm learning to this day. Every single day. I have to push myself constantly. It's something I try to do is become a lifelong learner and not just feel like, you know, school is over, learning is is done. Now it's time to do. I've tried to be a lifelong learner and I catch myself all the time. It's okay. I know I'm starting from zero. I know that I'm not going to be the best, you know, starting this now type of thing. Um, but I think especially moving across the country, starting a new job, not knowing anyone, I was sort of fully embracing, you know, being uncomfortable.

Grant Freking: (18:05)
Yeah. And so you decided to leave though, you left Google your, yeah. What was then your dream job? Why? Yeah.

Phil Santoro: (18:11)
So Google is an awesome place. I met a lot of incredible people. I met my wife Ruby there. I met my co-founder David. And after about a year and a half, David and I started brainstorming startup ideas, and we would get lunch every Wednesday and just brainstorm ideas for the whole dinner. And finally, after a year of that, we had a problem. We had so many ideas we wanted to work on and start that we couldn't just leave and start one company. And so we decided to leave and start a startup studio, which is a company that builds companies and that would become Wilbur Labs.

Grant Freking: (18:48)
And so what, what do, when you think about the early days of Wilbur Labs and those, during those lunches, what was, what was the thing that bonded the two of you together and like that and that idea?

Phil Santoro: (18:57)
Yeah, so I, I had started Free Forums. I wanted to work, I wanted to start another startup. David had worked for a startup. He knew that he would eventually found a startup. So we sort of came together because of that mutual interest. But then it was really brainstorming these ideas and thinking about people say the AI bubble or the AI phase that we're in started now, but it, it really started back in 20 15, 20 16. That's when we were exposed to automation machine learning that this is taking over every aspect of business. And David and I just saw across the landscape that companies were too risk adverse. They, they weren't adopting automation the way they could. They had these legacy infrastructures or cultures that were holding them back. And we both thought that we could go industry by industry and really take a first principles, the latest technology with the latest best practices, ignore what had been done previously, just think of the problem, how it would be solved today, and build a company for that. We, we felt like that was a great way to start a portfolio.

Grant Freking: (20:07)
So what were the early days like? Were you back in your, um, you know, res I guess collectively maybe mom's basement again? Or how, what was, how was, like, how did Quickly did, were you guys able to scale? How did that happen?

Phil Santoro: (20:18)
Yeah, so we left in 2016 to start Wilbur Labs. We worked on my couch for the first five months. So

Grant Freking: (20:25)
Traded, traded up a

Phil Santoro: (20:26)
Little bit. Yeah, exactly. Traded the basement for a, for an apartment. And, you know, we, we tried to take this process that normally is like bottling lightning is what I call it. That's what entrepreneurs deal with, is they, they try to bottle lightning and get this idea and bring it to market and hope that people want it. There's a, a lot of luck with that process. We wanted to build a systematized, repeatable process where we generate ideas, we research them, we hire people, we go to market, we launch a company, and we're building expertise along that full end to end journey. Um, and to give you one example, vacation renter. So Vacation Renter was one of our earlier companies. We were a small company at the time. And so we would take these offsites just to get away, you know, change of scenery from the city, and we would work in these apar uh, these vacation rentals or hotels with our team. And David and I were the ones booking them. And we just realized what a nightmare it was to book travel. I mean, literally you'd have 50 tabs open Airbnb and Booking and VRBO and hotels.com, and then all the apps on your phone, and you'd have so many tabs open, your computer would start to heat up and the fan would spin like a jet engine. Yep.

Grant Freking: (21:44)
I can, I can relate to that.

Phil Santoro: (21:45)
Yeah. And we thought, this is awful. Why don't we just aggregate everything together, all the hotels, all the rentals in one place. We launched a vacation renter, and it went on to be the fastest growing travel startup ever to reach a billion dollars in gross bookings. And so clearly we were not the only ones that had that problem. And we went on to take that same approach to other industries as well. We have a job list, which is a job search engine. Bark Bus is monetizing health, uh, pet care, largest mobile dog grooming company in the country. So we look for problems that are affecting a lot of people that we feel like we can build a company to solve as simple as possible. You know, going back to my earlier learnings with Free Forums mm-hmm . And, and we look to do that in as many industries as possible.

Grant Freking: (22:34)
Sure. Now, I'm sure you guys have, and back, even back then, when you founded over labs a a decade ago at competition in the sort of what you call, you know, systemized ideas, what sort of, what set you apart in your mind from the competition?

Phil Santoro: (22:49)
Yeah. When it comes to competition, we, we don't think that we have competition in the typical sense because our competition is really anyone who builds a business. So whether it's, you know, a bootstrapper, someone getting VC funding, private equity, I mean, there any, any business out there could be competitive for us. But all of our ideas are sourced internally. We have a, a r and d team internally that is coming up with ideas. We then do the research and diligence ourselves. We hire management teams to come in and help do the research and lead the company. And so we don't really compete with anyone necessarily. What we're competing for are good ideas for businesses. And so that is anyone who's making a business.

Grant Freking: (23:37)
How have the goals of Wilbur Labs changed since you founded the company, if they have at all?

Phil Santoro: (23:43)
I would say the goals are the same. We, we look to turn bold ideas into market leading companies. The tactics have changed a bit, especially with AI the last few years. We're thinking more and more towards being able to create leaner companies. Instead of having to spend one to two years building a company, people are able to get something out to market in three to six months. And so that speed, because it's happening from other companies, you know, we're looking to bring that in-house and get to market with the same speed.

Grant Freking: (24:16)
Does that make your job more stressful?

Phil Santoro: (24:19)
I'd say it's, it's different. It, it, it is both most the most exciting time to build a company ever, just given the opportunities out there. And also the most, um, I'd say the most stressful because you feel like the stakes are higher.

Grant Freking: (24:35)
Yeah. What prepared you for being an employer now that you have your company has grown to the, to the fact that you're a boss of many people now. How, what was, what's that journey been like for you?

Phil Santoro: (24:48)
Yeah, I think sort of working backwards. You know, people want to work at a company that's doing well, that is making an impact beyond just the paycheck, which is very important. But they want to make sure they're doing something. And so one of the principles we've tried to believe from the beginning is to solve real problems. And that's easier said than done. I think there's a lot of very smart people, especially in the Valley, who are building very complicated solutions to problems that nobody really cares about. And it's, it's very easy and tempting to get into that, um, because it's really about the building and, and you, you sort of have this vision for the future, and you want to build to that. And then at the end of the day, nobody cares. And so one of the things we've tried to do from the beginning is just solve real problems. Have our teams work on things that are actually impactful. They can see their work, they can see the impact they're having on others, whether it's dogs getting groomed more fairly, uh, so they don't have to be locked in cages at the, at the groomer, or whether it's helping people find a vacation rental for their family reunion. Being able to just work on cool things that are impactful. It really goes a long ways.

Grant Freking: (26:06)
So it sounds like the entrepreneurship pitch is still being scratched you in this job.

Phil Santoro: (26:10)
Very much so. Every every day is different. That's

Grant Freking: (26:12)
Great. Talk to me about giving back and where this sort of mindset, um, entered your, if it's, maybe it's always been there, um, maybe if it's something recent, but you know, you have some scholarship and, and giving that you do with your alma mater, your various alma mater mad and, you know, Lindner College of Business. So what's the story behind that?

Phil Santoro: (26:34)
So when I first started, I was, I was very young, and so got to see the sacrifices required to start a business. And then the further sacrifice is required to be a student entrepreneur. And so I, I think there's really three, three things I think about. One is entrepreneurship is critical. It's critical for our country. It's critical for the world. I mean, America was built by entrepreneurs. The, the products we use, the services, the jobs that are created, the economic empowerment that comes by people being able to lift themselves up by starting a business that is very powerful, and that's not going away anytime soon. Number two is, it is very challenging to start a, a business when you're young. And I would even say the system pushes against you in a lot of ways. And I don't think we'll necessarily change the system. And so we have to do what we can to help young entrepreneurs push through that.

Phil Santoro: (27:33)
And then the third thing is, I've just seen over the years starting so many companies that the younger you start getting into entrepreneurship, the better. Lots of reasons for that. But, and, and you might not even succeed the first time, but you will get so many lessons, so many learnings that you can then take to your second business when you launch that second company. And so starting earlier is almost always better. So for that reason, I started the Santoro Entrepreneurship Scholarship at Madeira High School in 2018. The entrepreneurship teacher there, Jennifer Jordan is incredible. She has this entrepreneurship class. It, it's always full and people have a, a, there's a wait list for it. There's competitions and, and it is incredible. And so I started giving a scholarship to high school students that are operating a business. And one surprising thing I saw with that, which I wasn't expecting, is that the number of student created businesses increased after my scholarship came online.

Phil Santoro: (28:31)
And it wasn't just because people wanted the money, that was certainly something, but people were just aware for the first time that, Hey, I can start a business in high school. Not only can I, but other students are doing it. And that really empowered students to build businesses. Then I brought that mission to uc and Lindner in 2023 with this inro Family Fund for entrepreneurship, helping student run businesses and funding a pitch competition. And then my wife and I now are researching what it would look like to start a private foundation to bring that scholarship nationally. And so I'd say the goals of all of this is help student entrepreneurs, but also increase awareness that, hey, you don't, you don't need to wait until after you graduate to start a business. You know, this might be your life calling and you can start it while you're in school.

Grant Freking: (29:22)
When you meet, uh, young entrepreneurs, whether they're at Madeira, Lindner or elsewhere around the country these days, what are some of the attributes that kind of come to mind? Do you, when you look at them, do you see a lot of yourself in them, or do you see different, is it a mix? I'm, I'm curious about that.

Phil Santoro: (29:37)
I think one of the great things about entrepreneurship is there isn't a single path. There are so many roads into entrepreneurship. I mean, pro the, a number of combinations. So you definitely don't have to go through a single path. I think the curiosity, sort of willing to take calculated risk. I don't consider myself a risk taker. I think that I take calculated risk and are able to sort of think through different outcomes. But there is some degree of calculated risk that you have to take. But really just a curiosity, desire to learn plus, you know, the ability to do something that isn't easy. If it were easy, everyone would do it. Um, that, that's really what sets young entrepreneurs apart.

Grant Freking: (30:23)
Does the calculated risk play a role in you being a licensed private pilot?

Phil Santoro: (30:27)
It, it does. I've, I've tried to be a lifelong learner, and this was a childhood dream. There's something about being thousands of feet up in the air on top of the world in full control with the freedom that is very hard to articulate just how cool that is. And, and I actually was able to bring some of the aviation learnings to Wilbur Labs, really, and, and aviation. We use checklists and risk risk management as a way to compensate for human error because human errors are fatal in, in aviation, in business not so much. And so a lot of our companies have embraced checklists, which we use for repeated work. So anytime you have something that you need to do more than once, we make a checklist for it. And whoever's doing it goes through the checklist, just like a pilot up at 40,000 feet. And that's made a pretty big difference for our companies.

Grant Freking: (31:21)
Was on your own personal checklist, where did, um, holding a Guinness World record for a fastest time to eat a jam donut with no hands come in .

Phil Santoro: (31:30)
This was another, this was another childhood dream. One of my favorite achievements, uh, I actually as a kid was reading these Guinness World record books. Oh, yeah. Flipping through it. Oh yeah.

Grant Freking: (31:42)
I we're, I'm, we're in the same wavelength here. Did the same

Phil Santoro: (31:44)
Thing, yep. Looking at all the weird things people were doing, . And I said, I have to be in there. Yeah. And I wasn't picky. I couldn't add three feet of height and become the world's tallest man. I had to pick what I could actually beat. And it turns out competitive eating is a unique mix of physical and mental ability, but it's more mental, which, which I enjoy. And so I, I actually tried to beat a world record at uc, fastest time to eat a onion. I failed. I could not get past this onion. Uh, and then, so finally in 2014, decided to try donuts, ate 22 donuts in one week, practicing getting the technique down. beat the world record for fastest time to eat a jelly donut with no hands, 11.4 seconds. And the hilarious thing is that every year there's a national donut day.

Phil Santoro: (32:35)
I don't know if you celebrate June 5th, um, you should add it to your calendar for next. I need to. Yeah. And so every every year national donut date comes across and my record goes viral every few years. And it's been picked up by, um, Newsweek, Yahoo SFGate, business Insider. I was in page 86 of the Guinness World Record 2016 book. And then also in this book called The Mammoth Book of Weird World Records. And the funny thing was, we're launching Wilbur Labs while all of this is going on, and we're trying to get some press for our company launches. And journalists not that interested. There's just, there's a lot of companies that are, are going, uh, and launching. Um, and so on the same point, these same journalists are covering my, my donut record. And, and I'm like, really? Like , but hey, every, everyone loves donuts

Grant Freking: (33:29)
And the marketing that comes along with it, apparently for a new company. Yep. That's right.

Phil Santoro: (33:33)
No matter how many companies I start, people just want to talk about donuts.

Grant Freking: (33:37)
, have you, have you, have you attempted to beat the record anytime lately?

Phil Santoro: (33:40)
I have not, but I, I would, I'm surprised that it's lasted this long. And people ask me all the time, are people trying to beat this? And I say, of course they are. You know, it's, there's only, you can't come up with your own record. It's only the records in the book. Mm. And so there's only 40 or 50 food related records. This is one of them. So I think, uh, I think you should try it. Try it one day.

Grant Freking: (34:02)
Yeah. Maybe, maybe I'll have to . Maybe we can find one of those books and find a record that I can go through. I don't know. Yeah, I definitely don't, couldn't do onions. That's, I don't, yeah, that sounds really tough. Let's make that great transition from, from donuts to closing advice. Um, there are students to listen to this podcast. And I'm curious about, you know, a couple of points that you maybe wanna leave anyone who's made it to the end of this podcast with about, you know, if they're thinking about entrepreneurship, if they're having trouble making that last clearance over that hurdle to like actually wanna start their company. They had the idea. What are some, from your own personal experience, both with starting a company and just being in the business for a while now, you're handful of bits of advice to leave with, you know, current students or maybe even recent graduates with?

Phil Santoro: (34:43)
Yeah, I think the biggest thing I wish I had in college was, um, a different perspective on risk and being open to taking more risk. I think I, I objectively took risk, but I think everyone always overstates the risk in their own life. Whether it's starting a company or applying for a job or following up twice because you didn't hear back from someone there. There's a million different risks that, that go on in your life. And for me, what's been helpful later in life is to actually think through what are the downsides if I do this and it actually doesn't happen, or it goes terribly. Um, and it's usually not as bad as you think. And we did a study on why startups fail. We surveyed 300 founders. We did a meta-analysis of all the literature out there on failure. We then combine that with our knowledge and we publish this report on why startups fail. It's been cited in a few different books so far. And one of the things that surprised me is that of the entrepreneurs that experienced failure, 84% said they would do it again. 84% would start another company after going through the worst thing imaginable. And you have to ask yourself if that many people are able to do it again. It's actually not that bad to fail. And I think that applies to everything, not just startups, because

Grant Freking: (36:10)
It what it teaches you about yourself, both personally and I guess professionally

Phil Santoro: (36:13)
Too. Yep. Absolutely.

Grant Freking: (36:15)
Thank you for listening to this episode of Bearcats Mean Business. If today's episode sparked a new idea, challenged your thinking or helped you see your path a little more clearly, be sure to subscribe, leave a review and share the episode with someone in your network. Thanks for being part of the conversation. And remember, real world success begins here at Lindner.