Bearcats Mean Business Archive: 2026

Grant Freking: (00:00)
What does real world success in business actually look like? Welcome to Bearcats Mean Business, the official podcast of the University of Cincinnati's Carl H. Lindner College of Business, where inspiring career stories, honest lessons, and fresh business perspectives from the people building impact in the real world come together. Tune in for inspiration, practical business insights, and forward-looking thought leadership on how ambition turns into action. And now for today's episode.

Marianne Lewis: (00:31)
Leigh, it's such a pleasure to have you here today. Thank you.

Leigh Fox: (00:34)
Yeah, no, thank you. It's always a pleasure. Uh,

Marianne Lewis: (00:37)
There, there are many things for us to explore today, but, you know, one of them is, is to dig a little bit into your personal story because, uh, I love your inspiration and I want others to benefit from it. And in particular, if we could, I, I'd love to talk about your experience as a first generation college student. I mean, you and your sisters were all first gen. Um, I'm increasingly just taken and I learned so much from the first generation students here. We've, we've doubled multiple years now. Yeah. The number of first gen. Um, but when you look back, what, what was that experience like and, and more maybe importantly, what lessons do you still carry from that time in your life navigating college as a first generation student?

Leigh Fox: (01:21)
Yeah. Uh, it's a great question. I, you know, I'm, um, it was a complete unknown, you know, I think. Yeah. You, you go into it, especially with our background, like you go into it pretty blind. Like I didn't have a ton of help - uh-huh. . And guidance on, you know, what paths to take. You know, my mom was working full-time. You know, she was pretty, um, adamant that I go to college, right? So she was, for, for, for myself and my sister, she was, you know, I, I honestly, I always joke, like, I didn't know there was another option, right? Like it was like she talked about like, you're going to college, right? You know, and, and so I really didn't think there was, I thought that was the path and you just figured out - Right. The path, right? But figuring out the path was different.

Leigh Fox: (02:03)
Um, you know, I, like I said, I, I, I didn't have a lot of guidance. I knew at the time I liked science a lot. Mm-hmm. . And so I thouht, well, I'll, I'll go into science. And I started in veterinary medicine and realized, you know, I, I got a, um, I got a summer job at a vet and realized, you know, vets, world class vets don't cry every time. They have to put an animal to sLeighp. Oh, stop.

Leigh Fox: (02:27)
. And I literally cried every time. And, and, and even the vet that I was working for, he's a very, very nice gentleman. He was like, "Maybe this isn't the path for you." Right? Um, so, you know, I, I kind of, I, I went around the, the science route quite a bit. Um, ended up in geology, uh, honestly because I really liked, I like chemistry, but I, I always looked at chemistry in geology as sort of the natural essence of chemistry. Like it's, you know, I used to call it God's chemistry, right? Like this is how God does it. Yeah. Right. Chemistry is kind of man's imitation trying to figure out what God does naturally in the, in, in the world. And so I looked, I looked at that as, you know, like something I was just very interested in. But, you know, uh, it was, it was difficult for me.

Leigh Fox: (03:10)
Um, you know, I, I worked multiple jobs through college. I always had a job or two, uh, through college. Um, I, when I started my, you know, my college career, I had, I was working 40 hours a week and going to college full-time. And so, and, and again, you, you, you don't, as a young kid, you, you know, especially for, for me at least, I didn't realize - uh-huh. . What I was doing, right? I was just doing - You were just doing it, right? Yeah. And it was, it was one of my professors who, um, grabbed me because I was constantly falling asleep in her class. And she was like, "You, what's going on?" And I, and I, I apologize. I said, "I, I, I show up at work at 6:00 in the morning. I work until X. I then drive to, to class. I sit in class and I have to go to work after this." And she said, you know, she was like, "How, how many hours do you work?" And I said, "I work 40 hours a week." She's like, "You realize you're working two full-time jobs, basically, between college and..." And I, and I hadn't thought of it that way, you know?

Leigh Fox: (04:07)
So, but, you know, it's the, the, the sort of main thing I took from that, it's, you know, it's the work, right? The work ethic. And it's just put your head down and do it, right? I, I, and this is - Amazing what you can get done. Yeah. And, and this has happened a lot in my career. Yeah. I joke, you know, there's so many times in my career where I've, I've been given opportunities that I'm not even sure that I, like, looking back with experience that I would have said yes, like, you know, you, but it's this, like, naivety of, like, I just wanna, I just wanna do, right? And I'm gonna say yes, and I'm gonna figure it out. I, I sort of learned that with college. And college was a struggle for me. Um, you know, I went to public high school. I wasn't a great public high school student.

Leigh Fox: (04:42)
I'll, I'll be really honest. I was a, you know, b- between my parents being divorced and just being, you know, in that kind of environment. I was an angry kid. Yeah. I was, you know, I was very intelligent. I, I realized that after the fact. Mm-hmm. . But, you know, when I got to college, I had to teach myself how to study. I had to teach myself. I, like, I had to do all this stuff by myself. Mm-hmm. . And, you know, you learn this, this independence and this work ethic that you carry, you know, kind of throughout not just college, but then, you know, college and beyond. And then, um, and then I went to grad school and, and look, I, I love grad school because I, I went to grad school here at UC. Mm-hmm. . Um, I, I always say it's, it's, it's absolutely changed the tra- trajectory of my life, right?

Leigh Fox: (05:23)
And I'm always, I will always be grateful. Um, I'll, I'll be grateful that they said yes, right? Because, look, they didn't have to say yes to a, a, a geology graduate who was working for Schlumberger at the time, who, you know, I wanted to get in my MBA. I had no business experience, right? Yeah. So I, I, I mean, I, I had personality, I think. I had a lot of personality. I walked in, I was like - I'm ready to go. I'm ready. I wanna be in your program, you know? And, and they said yes. And, um, I, look, it was hard work, but again, I, you know, you get through it and it truly did change the trajectory of my life. But I think the consonant was just hard work. You know, put your head down, do it. Yeah. And you'll figure it out.

Marianne Lewis: (06:02)
But I, I love that and that how well it's served as well. I think I hear another piece to it. If we could just talk a little about your own career and leadership. You are such a, a model of interdisciplinary learning. I mean, you just talked about geology, starting as, in the veterinary, moving to geology. But I also think of you as a musician with suits than rock and, and personal passions and then into business. Can you share a little bit about, uh, how you see these pieces fitting together or even do they need

Leigh Fox: (06:33)
To? No. I don't think they need to. Yeah. I've always, you know, I, I grew up, um, sort of, you know, watching my mom struggle to, like, you know, support three kids on her own with, with zero support, right? My dad disappeared. And so she had, she was doing it on her own, right? Mm-hmm. And, um, you know, you watched, you watched that as a kid and growing up and you, you realize, like, you got one life, right? And I, I, I, I wanna be happy and I want the people around me to be happy. And, you know, if I'm not happy in something, I'm gonna, I'm gonna change it and I'm gonna go figure it out. And I, and that is something I kind of promised myself early on, like, with jobs, with whatever it is. Mm-hmm. If I'm not happy doing it, I'm gonna change it and I'm gonna figure something else out.

Leigh Fox: (07:18)
Um, so I, I think that's one driver. I, I'm also a huge believer that, you know, you can, you need to continue to challenge yourself with different things. Um, and I think I'm a, I, I'm a perfect example of that, right? I, I mean, I, I've done so many 180s, right? Mm-hmm. E- even within the company I'm at, you know, I, I never dreamt of being a CEO. I, I, I really didn't. I, I, I fell in love with finance when I was in grad school. Uh, I really, really liked finance. And my goal was to get into finance, to work my way out, you know, through finance orgs, to be an FPNA, to, like, learn about the company and to eventually become a CFO. I, I, I became a CFO at, like, 40, right? And so, and, and I really distinctly remember talking to my wife about, like, hey, I might have, like, peaked early, right?

Leigh Fox: (08:04)
I don't know. Like they say the average tenure of a CEO, CEFO is, like, four years. Oh, I don't know what we're gonna do after this, right? Like, I, you know, it was like this conversation of, we may have to move, right? So just, I wanna prep you. Um, and, you know, it, I was just fortunate enough to, to, you know, to be in a position where I could say yes to things. Mm-hmm. And, and, you know, I, again, I never would imagine that I had, would've had this opportunity. Um, but it came, and it's so different than that. You know, a CEO is a very, very different job, right? Mm-hmm. And you learn that over time. Um, but between, you know, that, and, and look, I'm already thinking about, you know, I'm still pretty young. Mm-hmm. I've been in this job for a decade.

Leigh Fox: (08:45)
I'm not gonna be in it for another decade. Okay. Um, y- y - only because a- after a while you, you realize you might be holding the organization back. You're the old fogie, right? Like, so it, it, like, I'm already thinking about what's next. And candidly, like, what's next for me will likely be something completely different, right? Mm-hmm. I don't know that I'll go into business. I, I may go into music. I may do other things, right? Um -

Marianne Lewis: (09:06)
The 180s have served you well. Yeah.

Leigh Fox: (09:08)
I, I, look, I, I just think, you know, you follow your passion, right? I, I've always done that. Um, I've, I've followed what feels right. Mm-hmm. And like I said earlier, and then you figure it out, right? You, I, like, you work hard. I get, I ask my kids all the time, right, like younger students, like, what's the formula? It's almost like, you know, when hear - They do. They want to - Oh yeah, they're like -

Marianne Lewis: (09:26)
They do wanna hear it. So

Leigh Fox: (09:27)
What's the formula for CEO? Right? Like, what, what plus what, plus what equals CEO in my career? And there is no formula, right? I, I am, and I am the absolute, you know, poster child for the fact that there's no formula. I sometimes joke like, well, do you have a geology undergrad? Because if you don't, I'm sorry, you know, you're not gonna get. Um, but the hard work piece. Yeah. So critical. Like you need, like, especially when you're young, just work hard and gain experience. And follow. And the hard work becomes easier when you're doing something you truly enjoy and you're passionate about. The hard work is a lot easier. When you're not doing something you enjoy, hard work - Much harder. Feels like hard work. Mm-hmm. Right? When you're doing something you're passionate about, it, it, it really is a lot easier. And I was, I've been very fortunate just to follow those, those paths, right?

Leigh Fox: (10:19)
Yeah. I,

Marianne Lewis: (10:21)
I, I mean, I think it's a, it's a, such a critical point around, uh, the hard work because in part you're saying, you know, some of these 180s, maybe all of them have been, "It's time. I'm not enjoying this fully. I'm gonna make a shift." But you didn't exactly take an easy next pivot. I mean, if, if I think about the Cincinnati Bell move when you joined in 2001, I mean, it was facing some very significant challenges. I think bankruptcy was actually a real concern, but it didn't scare you

Leigh Fox: (10:51)
Off. Well, I'm sure I, I, I, I, I might have been pretty naive at time. Okay, well then - As a, as a, as a young kid. Like I, I think - But you

Marianne Lewis: (10:57)
Saw something.

Leigh Fox: (10:57)
I did. You know, I, oh yeah. I mean, right away you knew something was wrong, right? You got into the, the, you, you got the job and like within months it was like something's amiss, right? Like people are very tense . And I remember

Marianne Lewis: (11:10)
Then - You also saw an opportunity. I,

Leigh Fox: (11:11)
You know - I mean you probably - I did. I, I think it wasn't, maybe it wasn't that I saw an opportunity. I was given opportunities. Okay. And I was, so, so I don't know that I would give myself as much credit as, but people saw something in me to say, "Go figure this out," and I would figure it out. And so they, like, they kept giving me these things to go figure out. And I would go somehow figure it out and just put my head down - Yeah. And work and figure it out. And to me, in that environment, it, you know, once, you know, I, I, I don't wanna paint the picture that I was like, you know, "Hey, there's all this tension. This company's not doing well and, you know, this is a great opportunity for me." There I go. I was nervous as everybody else, right?

Leigh Fox: (11:51)
Like I, I didn't know what was happening. And, but, but what I did know is that the people there were giving me responsibilities that I probably would never have gotten if I was somewhere else. Mm-hmm. Right? I definitely look back and I, I was given opportunities that were well beyond, I think, my experience level. And it, these were several, I think, sink or swim opportunities. Mm-hmm. And I just happened to swim, right? And I think that's, again, that goes back to, like, I put my head down. Yeah. And look, my graduate degree really taught me that. I love that. Your graduate degree, what it, the, the, the ma- massive thing that I gained from my graduate degree is, you know, UC will pile more work on you than you think you can do, right? Until you do it. Right? And then you realize you will figure it out.

Leigh Fox: (12:38)
And it's, it's this concept of, like, you just put your head down, you don't panic, and you put one foot in front of the other, and you just do the work, right? And you organize yourself and you do the work. You, you, and it's almost like tiers. Then you, okay, you've got, you've completed this. Now you go to the next thing, you do the work, right? It's no different in my career, right? Yeah. Um, and I think I was just lucky enough to, like, have people give me these kind of opportunities where it was a lot of hard work. I worked a lot of hours. It was sink or swim. I ended up, you know, surviving through it and thriving in it. And by the time you get out to the other end, you, you look back and you realize I've gained so much valuable experience and so much valuable knowledge.

Leigh Fox: (13:20)
And that's where I try to tell kids, that's when you become important, right? Mm-hmm. That's when you become valuable to an organization. When you put your head down, you do all this work. And then someone like me realizes I've got a person next to me that I can count on, that if a problem comes up, they're on it. I'm not ha - I don't have to worry about it. And their experience helps them level it, like, not panic, level, do the work, manage the people, get it done in the right ways, and move on. And that comes with experience.

Marianne Lewis: (13:50)
Oh, absolutely. A, a leader said to me recently, Leigh, and I just, man, I'm just holding it dear and thinking even about our students for the fall, that learning comes through three, three things. Comes through struggle, failure, and conflict. And it, and as I though about that, and it was, it was a funny line because he kept saying, "I just keep learning." It's like you have all three. But I also, I want students to see that's the double edged sword is, it's not saying you're gonna love it and it's gonna always feel great, but oh, there's magic in those challenges.

Leigh Fox: (14:23)
And what's, and it's, it's, it's really spot on. Um, you know, I think where the danger is for, for young people, and I, and I've seen this in, in people throughout, you know, my career that I've, I've dealt with, that when you wanna put the perfect resume together, right? Mm-hmm. And you wanna be the, you know, you wanna go, "Well, I'm gonna go do this job and I'm gonna, you know, I'm gonna just kill it and I'm gonna do a great job and I'm like, and I'm gonna, I'm gonna ace everything I'm given, and then I'm gonna move to this thing and I'm gonna ace everything I'm given. And then I'm gonna ace everything I'm given over here." It doesn't work like that, right? Somebody, and I had this conversation earlier this week with a s - a, a graduate. They asked, you know, like, "What are some of the things you learn?" And I, I laughed.

Leigh Fox: (15:05)
I said, "You know, someone once told me, like, you hardly ever make a wrong decision. You seem like, it seems like you always make the right decisions." And I, and I laughed and I was like, "It's because I've made so many bad decisions." Right? And that's the, I mean, it's there's - People don't see that, right? But there's so much truth in it. It is. Like, you have to - I, I have myself. And I continue to. I continue to make decisions where I'm like, "Well, I'm gonna learn from that, right? Here's what I've learned from this like error." You know? And at a CEO level, what becomes really, um, important is that you have to realize you're, you're not going to get everything right. Mm-hmm. Your, your job is to solve problems and you're going to make mistakes. You're going to have errors in judgment, but you can fix them.

Leigh Fox: (15:49)
Yeah. Right? Yeah, absolutely. And, and it's just, at my level, some of my

Marianne Lewis: (15:53)
Errors - That resilience and confidence is so true. So

Leigh Fox: (15:55)
My errors are like hundreds of millions of dollars - Yeah, absolutely. Of like, "Hey, I've got to make this decision." Mm-hmm. What if you're off? Well, you have to understand how to pivot and correct. Mm-hmm.

Marianne Lewis: (16:05)
Right? And how to know quickly that you might be off, right?

Leigh Fox: (16:07)
Correct. Correct. And so that, that's the value in, in that experience. And so - That's good. You're never gonna stop making mistakes. And I hope you never do because that's how you learn.

Marianne Lewis: (16:17)
You know, I, I, let's talk a little bit about, more about kind of your leadership approach because you've had, and I mean, I, I can just name a few, but some very significant company defining strategic decisions in your career from the investment in fiber, the decision to go private, the rebrand from Cincinnati Bell to altfafiber. I mean, there's a lot of uncertainty to say the very least in those big ideas. I mean, I think my first question is can, what are the, what are the principles that ground you in that uncertainty of the big, big

Leigh Fox: (16:52)
Decisions? Yeah, that's a great question. I, I, for me, it's as simple as, you know, I've become very good at listening to my heart and understanding, like, if I feel like it's the right decision, then it's the right decision, and then going with it. Um, I learned really early on through watching people around me, both good and bad, right? Mm-hmm. Like, you know, I, I've had a lot of great mentors and people around me that I've, um, I've, I've had the opportunity to work around that have been aw - incredible. Yeah. But, but I've watched them not only succeed in things, but make mistakes and things. And one of the things I learned really early on was that in business, momentum is key. Mm-hmm. Right? You can, you know, you can sit and overanalyze anything. Yeah. Right?

Marianne Lewis: (17:35)
Paralysis.

Leigh Fox: (17:36)
Yeah. Oh. And it, and it happens. And it's easy to do. Mm-hmm. As leaders, you have to say, look, in my heart and through the, through the data and everything, look, I, look, I'm a, I'm a data geek, so I know what to look at and I've got the ex- experience in, like, why and what matters. And, but when, when you make the decision, make it. Mm-hmm. Right? And, and I've gotten to the point where I make decisions and I sleep well at night. Yeah. Because, because I, I've learned to make them for the right reasons. And that's the other thing that's a challenge, right? I think with leaders, you know, um, you, you, you, these roles are dangerous. Right? And I always say, like, the, the day I got the, the, the title, I became the funniest person in the room, right? You know, I became the most popular.

Leigh Fox: (18:21)
I became very highly paid, right? And I became, you know, and all of this can go to your head. It really can. Right? And I think the best leaders understand that immediately and find ways to counterbalance it and stay humble and, and divorce themselves from their egos, right? And just say. And I do a lot of things really actively, like, in, very intentionally to, like, manage my ego. Because I, I'm as, I'm human, right? I have an ego. And I - Okay. And I'll give you an example. Like, um, I, I, I love. There's an organization that my wife and I got involved with recently, and I, I won't, I won't name them. They're local. They do phen- phenomenal work. But, but, um, they actually called me up. The CEO called me up and said, "We'd like to give you this award." And I said, "You know, I really appreciate that, but that's not why we do what we do.

Leigh Fox: (19:13)
So I'm gonna have to decline." But I told her, I said, "Look, the, the reason is I, in, in my position, I get offered these things a lot." Uh-huh . And I say no more than I say yes. The reason I say no is because I'm trying to man - I don't want it to be, I don't want that to turn into why you do things. Mm-hmm. And I think if you're, if you're thrown accolades all the time, I, I'm a human being. Like you get used to it and that starts. Yes. And that starts becoming the engine. The driver. The driver and why you do things. And I think it's always helpful to have things that, that you consciously do to manage that, that part of you. I love that with intentionality. Yeah. And, and look, music is another thing. I think you and I have talked about this before.

Leigh Fox: (19:58)
Mm-hmm. I, I started taking music very seriously because it's so humbling. It is. Right? I take jazz, right? Yeah. I, I still, look, I've been taking jazz now for 10 years. I still leave lessons like I'm an idiot. Like, like I, but I'm getting better and better and better and better at it. It, one, it, it, it, it's a la - it's a language. Music is a language. It is. So I'm learning a language. Two, I, it's a language that I'm not familiar with and I have no background in, right? And so learning to read music as an example in my 50s, right? Challenging. Humbling, right? Every time I pick the instrument up, it's humbling, right? And I tell people, you have something in your life that humbles you. Mm-hmm. Right? That keeps you grounded and balanced, right? And then your family always keeps you balanced.

Marianne Lewis: (20:48)
They're very helpful with that.

Leigh Fox: (20:49)
They're great at knocking you down as soon as you feel, you know, a little too high on yourself and wham. I've got so many stories about that I could tell, but.

Marianne Lewis: (20:59)
You know, I, I, I, I love that example of, of music as well. And, and you and I have talked about that before. I was thinking about it actually related this morning. There was a great article about the power of sports with the World Cup. And I thought similar to music, there's one, there's the, the people around you, right? Yeah. This, even if it feels like it's an individual accomplishment, there are others. Yeah. Like think about jazz, just the power of a jazz ensemble. But I think about soccer and just the flow of going on. But the other piece is there is always, always, always a level above. Mm-hmm. In fact, there are many. Yeah. And, and it's humbling even as you get, you feel so good, you go, "Oh my goodness." Oh. That's a - Wow. Transcendental.

Leigh Fox: (21:42)
As a musician, the last thing you wanna go on is g- g- go, you never wanna go online and Google good guitar players, right? Like, like you're gonna go, I'm gonna quit because that kid looks like he's eight and he is way better than I am. So, right? And it's, it's absolutely true. Yeah. Right? It's - It is. There are so many naturally talented people. And it really what you have to like, what you start to figure out is you give yourself grace on like learning. Yes. And the, the constant development and the, the learning. And that's the piece that I'm, I'm, I'm such a big believer in. And, and it's the reason why I still do what I do because I'm still learning every day. I'm still, there's still things in the business that change where I'm like, "This is so cool. I've not experienced this before." Uh, whether it's a kind of a leadership change or like some kind of cultural change or some kind of business change or, you know, com- competitive change.

Leigh Fox: (22:31)
It's, it's like, it's constantly evolving and we're constantly changing. It's like, it's always giving us things to learn. And, and if you don't have that, you know, I always tell people, look, that's one of the key elements in, in any kind of work. You want to look for, you know, do you, do you work with good people? Mm-hmm. Are you treated fairly? And, and are you learning? Like, and if you have those three components - Yeah. It's

Marianne Lewis: (22:53)
A secret sauce.

Leigh Fox: (22:54)
You doing pretty well, right? Mm-hmm. And so even if you're like looking at the grass being greener somewhere else, I would take a pause and really, really consider what you have because those are three very special things.

Marianne Lewis: (23:06)
You can make so much of them. Yes. As well. Um, y- y- you, you, you've mentioned, uh, your, the organizations you give back m- more as a volunteer and, and you're so involved. I mean, at UC alone, you're the, you're the chair of our UC Foundation, which is a, a big role and so valued from all of us here at UC. You're on my cabinet, which I, I always value your, your critical friendship. Um, United Way. I mean, I, I know that's a long list, but I think something I really a- always try to help, especially our students understand, because it goes, "Wait a minute, this is a very busy person." And we could start running through all this and you go, "Why?" Yeah. Yeah. Could, could you share a. I mean, what's the intrinsic motivation there? Yeah. I - 'Cause it's stretching you, I'm sure.

Leigh Fox: (23:54)
Yeah. Some, sometimes it, it does. Um, you, you get used to the, the cadence and - Yeah. The schedule. I, I've learned, I've gotten a little better at managing, you know, like I've learned you can't be chairs of three organizations at once, right? Okay. Mm-hmm. So, so, you know, that's, that's pretty, that's, again, learning, constant learning. Um, but I, I, at some point in my career, I, you know, I was working really hard. I was being rewarded. I was being promoted and it just didn't feel good. And so I had this conversation with a good friend of mine who were, you know, worked with us and, and I was talking to him about it. And he's like, "Do you ever think about getting involved?" And he mentioned an organization here locally, uh, Cancer Free Kids. And, um, and I, and I went to one of their dinners and, and I, I kind of realized that that was the piece of, that was the piece of my life that I was, I was missing, right?

Leigh Fox: (24:49)
I was, I was so fortunate to come, to be where I'm at and come from where I came from. Mm-hmm. That, you know, part of me just wanted to give back that for, like, that fortune. Like to say, look, it, it's as important to pay it forward, right? Yeah. T others, right? And it's like the scholarships here. Yeah. And the reason why I love being involved with the foundation. And like these are very important things when you're fortunate enough to, you know, experience the things in life that I've experienced. You have to take a responsibility and give back. And I, I really feel like it, it is our responsibility as leaders. Mm-hmm. And I think most leaders think like this, right? There are obviously, I think, those out there that, that may not, but I think the vast majority of leaders - That's a great ones too.

Leigh Fox: (25:33)
The vast majority of leaders think about, like, look, giving back is a key part of, of. And, and they want to from, from the heart, right? And, and so that sort of shifted in my life and, um, and then, you know, like as you get higher up in an organization, you get more opportunities to give back also. And I think that's important. Um, and so the more I was asked, you know, the more I got engaged with different organizations. And then again, learning, right? Mm-hmm. I learned the things that, like, I was passionate about, the things that maybe I wasn't as passionate about. Sure. And so you learn where your involvement is important because you do wanna follow your passion, especially when you're giving back in, in a philanthropy, uh, kind of philanthropic situation. But, you know, it, it was natural. And, um, it's honestly a very important part of my job now.

Leigh Fox: (26:23)
Mm-hmm. Um, and, and the other piece is - I think it shows. Well, and, and look, it's, it's not all, you know, totally selfless. Um, part of being a CEO is getting out in the community and meeting people. Right. I have met more people in the community and more leaders and built more relationships through being involved with organizations like the Chamber, Arts Wave, United Way, like what name the organization. You get to know people at a whole nother level when you're involved at that, in those organizations. And, and that's, that's truly important. And people get to know you at another level. You know, you, they become, you're not just the CEO of altafiber, you're, you're Leigh and, you know, I've gotten to know Leigh. And, and that's massively important. It is. Right? And so don't underestimate the value of that as, as, as, as you grow in your career, if you're young.

Leigh Fox: (27:14)
It's so important to have that tentacle too and get to, get people to get to know you in that, in that sense also.

Marianne Lewis: (27:21)
I, I just love that point, Leigh. I mean, I, I, I've seen that in our United Way board. It gives me a new respect, not only for the individuals, but for our city, that you can, you can fill a room with leaders of that caliber. Talk about time, tra - talent and treasure. Yeah. I mean, the expense of that room, let alone the incredible wisdom. Yeah.

Leigh Fox: (27:44)
It's cool. It's cool. It's

Marianne Lewis: (27:45)
Cool. It is. I always leave just going, man, we have a great city. Yeah. We can care about each other. We care about making it better. And we're all coming at it from different angles. It's not inspiring. Imagine what we can do.

Leigh Fox: (27:56)
Yeah, it's really inspiring. And then you, you, I think it's also a, again, I go back to staying humble and, and, and understanding that you, you s - you really do get a, a really good understanding that people aren't as fortunate as you are. Mm-hmm. And there's a need in the community. Sure. And -

Marianne Lewis: (28:14)
Talk about humbling. Yeah.

Leigh Fox: (28:15)
And, and you, you do have a. I, I feel like I have an obligation as a leader in the city - Yes. To try to do everything I can to lift the city, right? Mm-hmm. And the community up as, as much as I can. So if I can do that by using s - talents that I have, you know, grown through business and I can do, then, then trans - you know, transplant those talents and try to solve problems -

Marianne Lewis: (28:35)
And they are transferable. They are. Absolutely.

Leigh Fox: (28:40)
I just, we, look, I, you know, I'm chairing the United Way, you

Marianne Lewis: (28:42)
Know, campaign

Leigh Fox: (28:43)
Business. I know. And so we ha - Thank you. We had a, well, it's a great, it's, honestly, it's an honor. And we had a great meeting yesterday, Moira and I, and the, the CEO of the United Way. Mm-hmm. And we, we had a great meeting with, with someone. And we were explaining about just how the United Way has developed, um, from where it was to where it is today and how it is really building a foundation that I'm now starting to see hope of solving very difficult long term problems.

Marianne Lewis: (29:10)
Yeah. The more wicked problems. Yes. Right. Systemic.

Leigh Fox: (29:13)
The systemic problems. And you can see - I see that too. Path forward and you're like, it's not gonna happen tomorrow, but my gosh, these building

Marianne Lewis: (29:19)
Blocks - We're all rowing in the same direction and that's exciting.locks

Leigh Fox: (29:21)
Are starting to come together. Yeah. Right? And it's things like that. I mean, I leave meetings like that and I'm jazzed. Right? I had a great day the rest of my day yesterday from that one meeting. Yeah. Because I was so excited about, like, I love hearing and talking about this stuff and, and getting people to unders - like you see the light bulbs go off and others are like, "Wow, right? This is cool stuff." Like yeah, it really is.

Marianne Lewis: (29:44)
Um, you know, I'd love to, to get your views on, on our, our future leaders here at, at UC. I mean, if, if I may, and you know this well from, from serving on the cabinet. We invented co-op, but we're really making a step change to think of. About co-op not as a, a thing you do and experience you have, but as this engine to transformational learning that happens, including in an MBA who's not doing a traditional co-op, but it's the connective tissue between s - absolutely our partners in the city and an industry and our alumni link to our faculty and staff experts and then always with the students in mind. And how do you get that working as a, an engine that hums and helps challenge and push and energize - Yeah. The learning that's possible. I mean, that's what wakes me up every day because it's so exciting to see the changes in students that are possible.

Marianne Lewis: (30:40)
But you sit in a different seat, you know the change is happening in the industry, what qualities do you think are just critical that we're, we use that engine to hone? Uh,

Leigh Fox: (30:52)
That's a great question. Um, you know, what we look for, and, and we, we see this in certain young people that we, we've hired, we've been honestly amazed at some of the things that come out of some of the young folks, even interns that we see come through the organization. Um, critical thinking i- is in, in problem solving - uh-huh. In, in that, in that like creativity, like the, the combination that like trifecta - Yeah. Is going to be massively important, right? I think understanding the tech is going to be like a baseline. Mm-hmm. Right? Table stakes. It's going to be like table stakes, right? I agree. Like we're going to kind of assume you understand the tech. Like right now I - No,

Marianne Lewis: (31:31)
We better make sure they live up to that assumption. I

Leigh Fox: (31:33)
Assume because you're X younger than I am, that you're way better at the tech than I am, right? It's, it's combining their knowledge of the tech with my experience in business and trying to get them to understand sort of my experience in the business. And you know, learning quickly, what you see out of the, these kids is like they can absorb things very quickly. Yeah. And, you know, I've said this to you before, like the, you know, when I, you hear so many things about the, like the young people. You do. And I, I laugh. I'm like, you know, you go back to the 60s and I'm sure they said the same thing, the 70s, they said the same thing. Every generation looks at the youth and they're like, "We're done," right? And every time somebody, I hear that, I'm like, "Go, go spend some time at UC."

Marianne Lewis: (32:19)
It's true.

Leigh Fox: (32:20)
Like go, you

Marianne Lewis: (32:21)
Have hope and faith in this next generation.

Leigh Fox: (32:23)
Yeah. If you think that, go spend some time with, with some of these students. I agree. Because they're rock stars. Like I, I do, you know - And

Marianne Lewis: (32:29)
They're different.

Leigh Fox: (32:30)
They're different. They are. But man, they are rock stars. I love so. Right? And you know, I think getting them the experience in business and getting them in the right places, and I, I think getting them to understand also that I think some of them come in with expectations that are like, you know, like when I get questions like, okay, what are the three steps to CEO? Right? Well, there's probably gonna be more than three steps, right? Mm-hmm. I, I think understanding that it's going to be work, right? And I actually say this, I got this from my, my former boss and it's like, I, I, I don't know how many times, I totally ripped this off and I'm sure he ripped it off from somebody, but I love it. I say it so many times that, you know, he, you know, he said, you know, in your 20s, you party.

Leigh Fox: (33:14)
In your 30s, you learn. In your 40s, you earn. In your 50s, you mentor. In your 60s, you get out. Right? And if you look at a career, that's not that far off, right? And for, for 20 and 30 year olds, what they have to understand is, one, enjoy life, but work really hard in the world. Really hard. And it's going to take time. Mm-hmm. Right? And, and the expectations to earn and like all these things that like these, these glittery things that people in front, it will come. Yeah. Right? But it comes with experience.

Marianne Lewis: (33:44)
And climbing that learning curve and - Correct.

Leigh Fox: (33:46)
Correct. It comes with experience. So give yourself a little bit of grace. Work hard. Mm-hmm. And understand that's gonna, gonna happen. And the other thing I try to impart on, on kids is that like, do it while you're young because, you know, your life changes too, right? Like, you know, look, I, I got married at like, you know, 30 something and, you know, you start having kids and, you know, that's a change, right? And I mean, when I had my first kid, my priorities flipped overnight. Yeah. Right?

Marianne Lewis: (34:15)
Literally.

Leigh Fox: (34:16)
And then yeah, overnight. I know. And, and, and whether that's a path you want or not, it doesn't matter. There are going to be life changes that are, you're going to experience that your priorities may shift and that's okay. Right. But take advantage of the time you have in the situation you're in, understand it, and just work really hard and learn. Mm-hmm. And it's that, that's how you gain experience, right? And then, but, but before you know it, you're gonna turn around, you're gonna be like, "I know all this. This is great. I am in a place where I feel comfortable. I am earning. I am like all this stuff you, you've - Exactly. I am the CEO now, right? You know, who, you know, trust me, you've got a f - plenty of CEOs in this building that you're teaching,

Marianne Lewis: (34:54)
So. Oh, we do. I, I appreciate that. And, and I just appreciate you, Leigh. I appreciate your wisdom, your engagement. I think the put your head down, work hard, just learn through the grind, but also - Have fun with the ground. Yeah, have fun and lean into the problems. Yeah. I mean, those challenges will pay off.

Leigh Fox: (35:13)
You know, the one thing that I, I would probably, you know, you know this about kind of my style too. Like I try to, I use humor alot - uh-huh. To, to, to break tension. I do that very intentionally, right? Because, you know, this is another thing I, I got from being young and watching my mom struggle. It's like, you know, like, look, there are much more serious things in life. Yeah. Right? What, what we do is serious and we, we do take it very serious, but we're not, you know, saving lives. Mm-hmm. And we're not, I'm, we're not a doctor on a, you know, with a patient on a table. You know, have - Look for ourselves. Yeah. Make fun of yourself. Right? Have some fun, right? Enjoy, enjoy each other, right? Break the tension. Mm-hmm. Try to enjoy the situations you're in. Um, and I think that's critically important also.

Leigh Fox: (35:55)
I think we, we, we, especially with what's going on in society and all the tension in society right now, just, you know, treat each other with kindness and, you know, have fun with one another and realize that, like, we're so similar, right? Everyone across the world. I mean, I, you mentioned the World Cup earlier. Yeah. I think, look, that's one thing that I absolutely love seeing from the World Cup is that - I just love it. Like, you, you get - It's my heart full. Oh, I, you really do. You get people, and we tell our kids this. Uh, and I, I was lucky enough to travel as a, a young, a young man. You learn that everyone around the world's similar. Mm-hmm. Right? They all have similar, you know, hopes and dreams and passions and like - Yeah, that's true. Y- you are so much in common with the people around the world that, like, just realize that and, and get to know people and be kind and serve others and just, just really.

Leigh Fox: (36:43)
And I say that. It, like, if you asked. I have a tagline, like, in, in our organization. I just, I, oh, I end everything with be safe, be kind, and serve others, right? And, and I'm serious about it. Like just, just,

Speaker 4: (36:55)
You know - It's a good

Leigh Fox: (36:56)
Tagline, Leigh. Be kind to people and enjoy things. Enjoy building those relationships and, um, you know, and, and good things will happen naturally. They

Speaker 4: (37:05)
Absolutely will. Right. Thank you, Leigh. Yeah. It's been

Leigh Fox: (37:07)
A pleasure. Yeah, always.

Grant Freking: (37:09)
Thank you for listening to this episode of Bearcats Mean Business. If today's episode sparked a new idea, challenge your thinking, or helped you see your path a little more clearly, be sure to subscribe, leave a review, and share the episode with someone in your network. Thanks for being part of the conversation. And remember, real world success begins here at Lindner.

Grant Freking: (00:00)
What does real world success in business actually look like? Welcome to Bearcats Mean Business, the official podcast of the University of Cincinnati's Carl H. Lindner College of Business, where inspiring career stories, honest lessons, and fresh business perspectives from the people building impact in the real world come together. Tune in for inspiration, practical business insights, and forward-looking thought leadership on how ambition turns into action. And now for today's episode.

Marianne Lewis: (00:31)
Brendon, it's such a pleasure to have you here with us today. Thank you.

Brendon Cull: (00:35)
Thank you. I'm thrilled to be here.

Marianne Lewis: (00:37)
I, I, I find your career journey really quite remarkable. I mean, you've worked in government, corporate affairs, political campaigns, and now regional leadership. I, I wanna start by having you look back if you would. Which experiences most shaped how you perceive leadership today?

Brendon Cull: (00:57)
Um, you know, I have e- e- enjoyed, like you said, a very - mm-hmm. Diverse career with different experiences, uh, in business, uh, corporate world, um, in a, in a world like mine now at the chamber where I'm, I intersect with business and government and civic leadership at times. I worked in politics, like you said, I worked in the mayor's office, uh, for Charlie Luken when he was the mayor for five years. Um, and I think that if there was a, if there was one experience that, that really did shape influence in leadership, it was that the, the time that I worked, uh, for the mayor in, in 2001, and most people know Cincinnati's history is that 25 years ago, uh, this year, uh, is the, the anniversary in April of 2001, uh, a young man, uh, named Timothy Thomas, uh, was killed in an incident with the Cincinnati police officer in, in downtown Cincinnati.

Brendon Cull: (01:49)
Um, and that led to several days of rioting and unrest in downtown Cincinnati. And I was in the mayor's office at the time. Mm. Uh, and it was a small, small team, uh, in the, uh, le- leading city hall. Uh, and I got to see up close, uh, I think a, a great leader, uh, in my, my former boss, Charlie Luken, uh, really helped steer the city through that crisis. Um, but in addition to seeing him, I got to see some of our best business leaders in this community step forward and look for ways to help this community thrive and recover and put ourselves on a path to where I think we are now, which is a much better and a much more connected city. And we can talk about all of the things that happen in the, in the, in the 25 years since then.

Brendon Cull: (02:35)
But, you know, in that one particular week, you saw elective leadership, you saw business and CEO leadership and in some ways you saw activist leadership. You saw, um, people who were, uh, f - you know, frustrated by the current conditions looking for ways to shape change. Yeah. And it, it was, it, it all ha - it, it all, you know, obviously it wasn't everything that just happened in the course of that week. It was, uh, years of things that had built up to that moment and then years of work after that moment. Mm-hmm. Um, but to see individuals and how they chose to think about their city, how they chose to make change, how they chose to use influence in their voice - mm-hmm. Uh, in service of a bigger cause, um, it's hard to not, you know, go through life and think about the lessons from that, that particular week.

Marianne Lewis: (03:22)
I mean, that's a, that's a powerful learning experience you had there,

Brendon Cull: (03:27)
Brendon. I mean, I was, I was 20-something. I mean, the first time I answered the phone from, you know, I, I, I went on to have a career where I, I dealt a lot with the media over, over my life, but the first time I talked to a reporter, you know, was picking up the phone and having someone say, "This is so - and-so from CNN, and we're calling to come into town to talk about what's going on in Cincinnati, Ohio." Um, and so it was in some ways, uh, baptism by fire. Mm-hmm. I mean, you learn a lot in a, in a crisis moment like that. Um, but I also worked for someone who, you know, really prioritized building, I think, trusting relationships - mm-hmm. With the people in the community. Um, you know, Charlie Marleuca at the time had decades of relationships that he called upon in the business community and the civic community and the nonprofit community, um, in neighborhoods.

Brendon Cull: (04:15)
Mm-hmm. And, um, you know, I, that will never, I'll never forget that because I really see that as, um, the kind of model of leadership is that those relationships that you have have to go across, uh, this entire community, particularly if you're gonna try to make change in a community, if you're try- trying to be someone who is, you know, a person of influence and a person of leadership in a community. Uh,

Marianne Lewis: (04:35)
Uh, something you just said about just if you want to make change. I mean, th- this has changed around wicked problems in many cases. Absolutely. And I love personally just l- listening to the power of that example. And yes, you were sitting in the mayor's office and, and to some that might seem like a real seat of power and influence. And I'm not saying it isn't, but it's the weaving together of organizations and individuals that is a, to me, I, I hear you saying a really powerful takeaway.

Brendon Cull: (05:07)
It was. I mean, I remember and, you know, there was, there was, there were multiple times where the, the mayor and, and, you know, uh, I was with him for a lot of the, that week, but I, I don't want to overstate my influence, but I was certainly there for all, for all of that that was going on, you know. There was one room where, you know, you had folks from the Urban League who were thinking about what was going on in the community and then he would, you know, leave out of that room and there was a handful of people working on a different subject from the business community. You had the, you know, police department, so you were managing the actual fact that there was, there was still a crisis in a, in a community. Um, to be able to hold a bunch of, um, a bunch of urgent issues in your mind at the same time and act on them in a coordinated fashion is, that's a real, um, that is a real leadership trait.

Brendon Cull: (05:53)
Absolutely. And I think it's under, underappreciated. You know, we, we like to say, "Oh, CEOs are going to tackle this one, one big problem." Most CEOs never have the luxury of saying, "I'm going to focus on just one big problem."

Marianne Lewis: (06:03)
They're all interwoven.

Brendon Cull: (06:04)
Yes. They're thinking about what, what's interwoven. Mm-hmm. And they're thinking about, you know, what is going on inside their organization. And in this particular case, it's what's happening outside the organization. Mm-hmm. What's happening that is outside the organization that's affecting what's inside. Um, and so, you know, I, I, I have certainly been shaped by, by the time in that office. Mm-hmm. Again, not just with the mayor, but I think about some of the business leaders. M- Michael Fisher - Yes. Uh, John Williams, who was both, who were predecessors of mine as now CEO of the chamber were both, you know, frequent, frequently engaged. Janet Reed, Dr. Janet Reed who I had, had known for a long time already, um, when I was there, uh, who was deeply involved. Father, Father Graham, uh, president of, of Xavier University - Zavier. Mm-hmm. If we're allowed to mention Xavier - Of course we are.

Brendon Cull: (06:53)
On this wonderful b - uh, Bearcats podcast. Uh, and, um, uh, Charlotte Otto from Procter & Gamble - Yeah. And, uh, Jim Zimmerman from Macy's and Joe Pickler from Kroger. And these were, I'm sure I'm forgetting some folks, but they are legends in our business community. Yeah, they are. Truly. Um, who rolled up their sleeves and said, um, our job as business leaders is also to think about this community that we are in.

Marianne Lewis: (07:17)
I, I think you know, Brendon, that I, I study tensions and I see them everywhere. And one of the, the principles I've come to, to find is that the more stakeholders you are accountable to, the more tensions you experience and the more interwoven that they are. Yeah. And I think what you're describing is a, a really re - powerful re - connection across a lot of stakeholders. And with leaders who understand their role is to navigate and lead, but not necessarily to just solve. It's just, it's so much bigger than that.

Brendon Cull: (07:51)
Totally. It's so much bigger than that. It's, it's thinking about, uh, the connectedness of, of, you know, issues in a community. You know, we went through this process right after that. Um, again, this was 25 years ago this year. We're, we're recording this in June of 2026. This was, uh, you know, it all happened in 2001. Mm-hmm. Um, you know, the, there was an organization that was created called Cincinnati CAN, uh, Community Action Now, and that included business and civic leaders from all over the community to think about, uh, uh, issues related to police community relations, issues related to economic development, issues related to, you know, the Minority Business Accelerator, which is now the Cincinnati Business Accelerator - Yes. Part of the Cincinnati Chamber, um, was created out of that effort. Uh, a lot of the police reforms, um, though there was a collaborative agreement in a Department of Justice investigation, um, they were centered around that table.

Brendon Cull: (08:40)
And so you had a hundred civic leaders, business and civic leaders coming together and they not only offered and suggested solutions and ways of working, they also connected with each other and built a level of trust in the community. And so, um, in some ways I see those relationships still today. Um, and that, that is a, um, I think, you know, out of that tragedy, there is an advantage in this community is that it did bring together some, um, disparately connected individuals in service of a larger, uh, uh, a, a larger, uh, more, um, uh, hopeful vision of our, our city.

Marianne Lewis: (09:18)
L- let's, let's go a little further into, into your career, your journey, um, right? That was 2001. Mm-hmm. Um, you then, you then had some different roles after that. And I'm curious, because now you are sitting in the chamber as its CEO. It's a tremendous organization. But you, you had choices between 2001 and now of where you felt like you should be seated for meta - you know, metaphorically speaking to have the greatest impact. Can you share a little bit about how you made the move to finally decide, you know what? I wanna be at the city regional level level and not necessarily, for example, at a, an organizational level, which you certainly have done as well.

Brendon Cull: (10:06)
Um, yeah. I, I, you know, I wish there was a, um, my career path is non-traditional. It's not like I've gotten on one and stayed in one particular lane. Um, that works for me. It doesn't work for everybody. You know, I, I appreciate the, the different adventures. Um, and in fact, when Jill Meyer, who's my most recent predecessor at the chamber called me and, and invited me to come join her team, um, her text message to me, which I saved and, and referenced with her quite a bit was, um, "I'm looking for someone who appreciates a good life-changing adventure when it comes along." And really that was my, my, uh, leap off the diving board into the coming over to the chamber is that I knew it would be a little bit of a life changing adventure from going to, going from corporate America, um, there.

Brendon Cull: (10:48)
But what I think was, um, I think what define, what's, uh, a defining, um, mission for me - mm-hmm. Um, and I, that sounds really heady, but I, I don't, most people don't sit down and think about what their mission is, but, um, what I have seen and experienced in this community time and time again, uh, is that when business and civic leaders, uh, and that includes academic and nonprofit and grassroots leaders when, and when, when they come together in service of something bigger, um, they can solve a big difficult issue in a community. Yeah. And every time I've seen that, I have been inspired by it, but also interested in making sure that we pass that legacy onto future generations so that people who in, in an era where you've, where because of our phones and because of so many other things, we feel disconnected from other people, that you know that these networks and connect- connections still work.

Brendon Cull: (11:45)
And so, um, I, you know, I, I don't know if there's a defining moment, but what, what I get up for in the morning is making sure that we can teach in some way, uh, or help leaders who are in positions of authority and influence today understand the power that they have to make this a better place. And so, um, you know, I participated in Leadership Cincinnati, uh, you know, 15

Marianne Lewis: (12:16)
Years

Brendon Cull: (12:16)
Ago. So did I. I love it. It was wonderful. Wonderful. And I really put conversations in there. I, I wanted people to understand that if you make yourself a little bit vulnerable - mm-hmm. To coming out of your business or to coming out of City Hall and connecting with other folks as part of that tension, because you're, you, like you said, you're - It is. There's tensions there. Mm-hmm. You, I can just do my thing, but if I open myself up to other conversations and other individuals, um, that - Not very

Marianne Lewis: (12:42)
Comfortable always.

Brendon Cull: (12:43)
It's not comfortable always. Uh, and there's, and particularly in this moment in time in our community, there's risk. And, um, so if there's a mission of mine, it is to make sure that we are helping leaders in this community get comfortable with that tension, get comfortable with that risk - mm-hmm. And say, "Yes, I do have a role to play in the future of this

Marianne Lewis: (13:04)
Community." I, uh, there are a couple of lessons I, I, I, I hope that these podcasts, because I get to have wonderful people. Michael Fisher was on recently. One is that nobody's path is straight. I mean, not even by a long shot. I think yours is fascinating because you are jumping sectors, not just organizations. Yeah. Which I haven't, I don't see as much and I love. Um, but the second is that it, it takes the whole person. I mean, I, I love the way you think about this. We, we, maybe this sounds a, a bit tangential, but I, I worry sometimes for the younger generations that they can feel quite negative about the rate of change and the ability to change in a polarized and, and especially with social media, a very negative world. Yeah. But we have the, we have the blessing of time.

Marianne Lewis: (13:57)
We know things change. We know people make an impact all the time. Yeah. And I, I want to make sure we continue to instill that, not just hope, but motivation to be the change because it, it takes people.

Brendon Cull: (14:12)
Yeah, it absolutely does. And it takes, you know, I mean, the Gen Z, we've, we've done some work at the chamber. My colleague, Audrey Treasure, who leads our Workforce Innovation Center has done some work on, on Gen Z and we did some focus groups and it, it's really fascinating. And anytime I get the chance to spend time with college students today or university students, recent graduates who talk about kind of what their experience has been like, I'm, I'm fascinated by - mm-hmm. And I'm looking for those nuggets of what are you interested in? Yeah. What do you want your world to be like? It's often different from the world that we're in today, but they're not, um, there's no shortage of opinions on it. Um, if, if anything, it's a, um, h- help me figure out how to get into this swim lane, help me figure out how to get into a, a, a place where I can, um, it's not just about it making change either.

Brendon Cull: (15:03)
You know, some changes are, you can make change in some. I'll tell you a funny story.

Marianne Lewis: (15:08)
Oh, good.

Brendon Cull: (15:09)
We're, we've gotten really heavy really quickly. I'll

Marianne Lewis: (15:11)
Tell you a funny story. That's right. Let's, uh,

Brendon Cull: (15:13)
Let's do a funny story. I graduated from Xavier. And when I was a student senator, I, I, I started out in the kind of peace and justice world. Okay. And then I decided to run for student senate mostly because I was frustrated by, I didn't feel like the peace and justice programs were getting their fair share. So I said, "Well, I'll go beyond student senate and I'll make sure that they, you know, are attended to. " Well, then I got really into student senate as people who touch politics are, uh, it tends to happen. My big project when I was at Xavier as a student senator in senior year was changing, getting the university to change the toilet paper in the dorms from one ply to two ply. This was big, big news. It was on the front page of the Cincinnati Enquirer - Okay. In 1999.

Brendon Cull: (15:55)
So my first big headline was - Went all in. Was some pretty small change stuff. Uh, and so I like to think that we've probably tried to go onto some more consequential, uh, efforts. It has

Marianne Lewis: (16:04)
To start somewhere, Brendon.

Brendon Cull: (16:05)
But it has to start somewhere. It does. Uh, and so, um, I don't, I, you know, there are some things that are, that are, uh, small changes to make, but some of it is you can change culture in your world or in your neighborhood by just how you show up. And if you are the kind of leader, you might be a mid-level manager on an accounting team and you are doing an awesome job in your work and you are contributing to the company and making it a better organization and contributing to the bottom line. And if you go one step further, if you help bring the outside in, if you help think about what's going on in the world around you, you are gona go from a really great leader to the, the highest level excellent of leader because you're seeing what's happening outside the walls.

Brendon Cull: (16:49)
And so part of this, it's, it's not just about saying, "I'm gonna take up a cause." Mm-hmm. It's about understanding the world in which you're in, the history, the trends, uh, the needs, and then thinking about how your organizations and the people around you can contribute to what that future looks like.

Marianne Lewis: (17:07)
Well, I think, I think that's a, that's a great segue to talk a little bit more about leadership. I mean, you've already shared some names of individuals that truly are legends of Cincinnati. Um, I'd, I'd love to hear your view on what leadership qualities have really stood out to you of, from those who are able to not just move their organizations, but the city forward. What do you look for?

Brendon Cull: (17:32)
What do you see? It's, uh, you know, I've, I, I mentioned the names and not to name drop, but, uh, because it is, uh, I'm so fortunate to have had that, had exposure to these kinds of individuals. Yeah. And not to cross sector into Grant is our producer here, but his uncle's podcast I was on. I, I, you know, so I'll use a Reds reference here. Um, this is, this is like, I, I feel like in some ways I got to be the ball boy on the, you know, a World Series Reds team. I got to be around the best players at the time and see how they interacted with each other and what they were doing. I didn't do much when I was 23 years old. Um, but I certainly did learn a ton from all of these individuals. And, and, um, you know, what I saw is, um, advantages and, uh, influence and ability goes to people who show up, one.

Brendon Cull: (18:25)
Uh, you, you have no idea the advantage you get by just choosing to be in rooms and by saying, "I will go to that. " Um, and I know that in this time of, there's so much going on, we say, "Well, I gotta pri- prioritize my schedule and prioritize my own time." If there's something that you care about, um, showing up to that one extra meeting, showing up to that one extra conversation or coffee is really important. Um, doing the work, which these are simple things, but the person who writes the first memo, the first email, the first salvo in a conversation to say, "I'm gonna advance this discussion forward," um, they can have enormous influence with that. If you choose to sit down and say, "I'm gona start this conversation and lay out some issues," even if it's not ends up where you go.

Brendon Cull: (19:09)
Um, I had, I had a later opportunity when we were working on transportation issues to, when I got to the chamber, one of the first things that Jill and I worked together on is to say, "What does the transportation strategy need to be in terms of how the business community engaged?" And I had blank sheet of paper and got to write a little bit about how we should engage, what we should focus on and what issues we would need to cover. I hired my colleague, Pete Metz, who came on and has been, you know, uh, one of the, one of the best partners I've ever had in terms of doing civic work in this community over the last decade. And, um, we were able to execute on much of what was in that document. I go back and look at it sometimes and say, "This wasn't all right, but it certainly did set the tone for the work that we're gonna do.

Brendon Cull: (19:48)
" mm-hmm. So I tell people, you know, from a leadership perspective, s- start to do the work. And then there's no, there's no, um, there's no substitute for finding time to, uh, listen, um, you know, to, to what's going on. And the listening and learning aspect of, of a community and it goes hand in hand with trying to understand what's going on in, in this region. Um, we are not so unique as to s - we like to think we are sometimes, but we're not so unique as to think that we can't apply lessons from other communities here. We can. Mm-hmm. However, if you show up and you've got a whole bunch of lessons from a bunch of other communities, I'm excited to see you. I also want you to say, "I'm anxious to understand this community too." Right. And that means understanding the issue, the, the issues.

Brendon Cull: (20:39)
My colleague, we were talking about Leadership Cincinnati. My colleague Sean Comer, who just does a phenomenal job - He does. Leading Leadership Cincinnati. You know, one of the things that he talked about even in his interview and what I know about Sean is that he cares about the history block by block in this community. And so if you're thinking about art in Cincinnati, are you going back 25 years to look at what this city's relationship with art has been? If you're thinking about poverty in Cincinnati, are you thinking about what are the trends that have developed over 200 years - mm-hmm. That have led to some of the conditions that we have here today? And so I want people who are interested in what's happening here and I think those, you know, together those are, uh, leadership traits that I think help, um, particularly people who, who aspire to be civic leaders - mm-hmm.

Brendon Cull: (21:24)
Um, show up and do well.

Marianne Lewis: (21:26)
Uh, you know, I, I, I love that point, Brendon, because I, I think people who aren't from Cincinnati might think of us as monolithic or, or I don't know, unified in some way, but there are so many different stories and elements from the neighborhoods and let alone the history. I, one of the things that I, I think often of, of, in leadership for myself as a leader, but also in my work is just the power of vision and building alignment. You know, this is kind of a Patrick Lancione and beyond, but I think it's absolutely crucial. And then I hear examples like you're given and think building vision that can weave together that variety of stakeholders and neighborhoods and, and history is a different level of challenge. I wonder how you think about building vision and, and fostering alignment at that level. Yeah. Getting us all rowing in the same direction.

Brendon Cull: (22:25)
Um, I mean, I, I wish I had... I, I don't have all the answers. There have been plenty of times where I have failed in an effort to try and get a whole bunch of people. Yes, that's how, that's how we learn. And cities are messy and complicated. It's what makes them exciting. If you've done any reading about cities and regions, um, you know that they're, like, careers are not, not straight lines. Um, the thing, the thing that occurred to me as I was kind of thinking about this conversation is you have to invest other people in the vision. You have to convince them that that vision is something that they can hold on - Yeah. To as well. Um, if you think about it from a business term, business perspective, been a lot of IPO news in the, or a lot of IPO topics in the news lately.

Brendon Cull: (23:13)
Um, in, in some ways you're, if you're trying to get people, um, e- excited about your community vision or something that you're trying to do here, you're almost doing a little bit of an IPO, which means you have to give people stock in your vision. And that means you lose some control of it. Because at some point somebody could buy a whole bunch of it and say, "Oh, well, this is, I have a little different vision of it, " but they are owners. They feel ownership of the bigger cause in general. And so if you are leading something, at some point, you have to be willing to sell shares. You have to be willing to say - That's a great question. I am bringing you into this in a way in which you actually have ownership of this. This is no longer just mine. Might have started with my idea.

Brendon Cull: (23:53)
It might have been my invention. It might have been my thing. And it rarely is just one person's, but in, in this particular example, you starting something, um, if you're going to bring people a complicated community situation, this goes for business too, this goes for teams that you're working within an organization, is that you have to bring people into that, that vision and let them feel like they have ownership of it.

Marianne Lewis: (24:14)
Uh, I, I, I'm going to remember the IPO metaphor. It's a really good one because ownership matters. I mean, it's, it's motivation on a whole different level. Yeah. Right? Because it's personal.

Brendon Cull: (24:23)
Yeah. I mean, you could do... I, I had this, uh, opportunity a few, uh, last year to go down and hear a story about, um, it was a, a, a case study re- review of, um, Gibson guitars, and they had gone into an ESOP. And an ESOP is another similar model - Of course. That you could do. You're giving people ownership and making them feel connected into what you're trying to do. If civic leaders find ways to do that, I think they could be really, really successful. Uh,

Marianne Lewis: (24:49)
Let's look a bit to the future, Brendon. Um, I mean, I'm, I'm, I'm gonna give you a, a different kind of focus on this one. You know that I'm very proud of the co-op model here at UC. I believe it's the engine of how we learn through cooperative education. And it's really about blending students and faculty and staff and partners. But if I think about the power of connection and partners, what, if we, let's look ahead and think about how can businesses, universities and organizations really work to support this region? And you and I have talked a lot about the power of and vitality of attracting and retaining talent in particular. In your, in your wishes, in your dreams, how would we work together to go to the next level on

Brendon Cull: (25:35)
That? Well, I, I just wanna say fir- first of all, I mean, I love being on this campus. Um, this is, this is the center of what the future of Cincinnati looks like. Oh, I love that. When I was here last week with, uh, Dr. Pinto and we went to the top of the Crosley Tower as they are taking it down with Michelle O'Rourke. Yes,

Marianne Lewis: (25:52)
With Michelle

Brendon Cull: (25:53)
. Uh, and Skanska. She offered that. It was such a cool - Was it scary?

Marianne Lewis: (25:56)
All right I'm gonna

Brendon Cull: (25:57)
Have to do that too. The ORC, uh, ORC team's very safe so it felt

Marianne Lewis: (26:00)
Very,

Brendon Cull: (26:00)
Uh - Okay, excellent. Prioritized safety. But you could see - But it was so cool, um, to see what they were doing - Yes. Because you had all of these folks on the roof of this building, which is legend on Cincinnati's campus. Mm-hmm. I live a mile from here and I'm gonna miss it on the skyline. Mm-hmm. But, uh, progress. And they are taking it down piece by piece. And you know who was up on that roof were people who care about UC, lieutenant governor was there, uh, who thinks about education as a priority so that Ohioans can reach their, uh, full potential. And you had UC co-ops who were either co-oping at that moment or they were, uh, four or five years into their career and they started working at O'Rourke or Skanska as a UC co-op. Oh, that's great. And, and the building that they are replacing there is a STEM building, fourth STEM building on UC's campus, which is going to help chart the course of the future of talent in this particular community right here on MLK, right in the middle of the city.

Brendon Cull: (26:56)
Uh, stones throw from all of our hospitals, uh, I - 75 and the aerospace corridor all the way up to Dayton. This right here where we're sitting, uh, the, the College of Business here is a, is a, really a, a, um, uh, a beacon point for the future of this particular region. And when I pulled up today to park in the parking garage, there's a giant banner over the door, over the street that says welcome. And it's because you are hosting high schoolers from, like you said, on the way in here, all over who are coming here to think about what banner looks like. And if you look at cities that have, uh, you know, seen their growth move exponentially, it is because they have welcomed newcomers of all kinds, and then given them the opportunity to shape the future of the place in which they want to live.

Brendon Cull: (27:41)
And so it, it's both, it has to work both ways, is there? It has to. All of these folks who are coming here, I don't want you to come here and just get your degree and then move on and get a job and say, "This is the city that we have created for you. Live in it. I want you to come here - mm-hmm. Get your degree, get a job here." Yeah. And then be a part of the forces that help shape the city of the future. Absolutely. If you look at cities like Denver and Nashville and, uh, we're going to Charlotte this year for our leadership exchange, those are cities that have imported, um, hundreds of thousands of people, new talent into their community. And what they have said is once you get here, this is yours and you get to do with it what you want.

Brendon Cull: (28:16)
And I want those people to come here and shape this. They, they should feel ownership of it. Absolutely. They should feel connected to it. They should feel safe.This is the city that I want to live in in the future.

Marianne Lewis: (28:24)
Oh, that's a great example because I would love to help our students, whether they grew up in Cincinnati or co - or, or coming from afar, build that ownership in the city.

Brendon Cull: (28:34)
The co-op program program is, is so perfect because you're getting - That's a great way to do it. The students off campus. Yeah. Right out of the, right out of the chute. You know, you go to some universities and it's like, okay, you're gonna be in these four walls for the whole time that you're here. And I think the, the model now, and I benefited from this where I went, is that, you know, they, they push you to explore what's going on in the community outside of, of, of the campus. That's really important.

Marianne Lewis: (28:58)
It, it is important. And, and one of the ways I, I'd love to conclude our podcast is with some advice for this future generation. I think a particular question I'd love to ask you is if someone wanted to help shape the future of their city, Cincinnati in particular, but it could be beyond, but didn't know where to begin, what advice would you give?

Brendon Cull: (29:20)
Uh, well, selfishly, I mean, we haven't spent a lot of time talking about the chamber. Let's do. Uh, and I would, I would just say, um, there are so many ways to connect to our organization. Mm-hmm. Um, I tell people, I usually start by saying we're a nearly 200-year-old organization, and that's one, because I enjoy history. Um, but also I think it's that connectedness to who we are and our culture in our community is really important. So I tell people to knock on our door and that could mean you wanna sign up for our weekly newsletter so that you know what's going on in this community, you wanna come to the free networking events, you want to, uh, if you are a summer intern in Cincinnati and you sign up for the SINC program, we will help orient you to this community, uh, as a whole.

Brendon Cull: (30:00)
There are leadership programs for more seasoned executives as you move through your career. There's opportunities to be involved from a government affairs perspective. And then there's all the other cool stuff that we do, like Blink and Octoberfest and so much else that brings that community to, to our region. But I do think of our, I do want our organization to be positioned as a, we're a great first call for, for people. Um, in our days of going to college probably, if you remember, there was an information line usually on campus. Mm-hmm. Do you, do you remember this? Yes I do. You would like, you would call whatever the number was, I still remember mine and, and you could call whoever you wanted or whoever would answer the phone and you could ask them anything. Like what's the time you, you know, what time is it?

Brendon Cull: (30:43)
Wh time's the shuttle gonna pick me up? What time is this? 'Cause you didn't, we didn't have it all on our phones. I know I'm gonna sound really old. I'm not that old. But you didn't have, we didn't have it all on our phones. Yeah. It wasn't just Google this for me, please. It was, it was a number you called to, to Google this for me. In some ways our, our chamber can do that. Mm-hmm. Is that we can, you can call us and we can help orient you into this community. I wanna be a part of something outside of my company too. I wanna be engaged. I wanna benefit my company - Right. By being en- engaged in the community like we talked about earlier. We're a, a great first call. But in terms of advice after you get past knocking on our door, um, you know, I, I would say, um, you never, you should never stop learning.

Brendon Cull: (31:23)
Mm-hmm. You should never stop reading. Um, and I'm not talking about reading, uh, just texts and, and - mm-hmm. S- scrolling, but, you know, pick up a book. Uh - Go deep. Go deeper. Try to understand the history of the company that you're working for. Yeah. Uh, the history of the community that you're working for. Um, go talk to people. Um, you know, when I worked at Kroger, I spent 10 years working at Kroger, uh, leading government affairs and some of the most, uh, important conversations I had were, were with executives who were nearing retirement, um, who told me about their careers, but also what had happened in the company over the last several decades. Um, those moments, they're, it's not quite mentorship, although you're getting mentorship out of it. Yeah. But it's helping you understand just the ways of things because companies that are... Once you hit a certain, uh, longevity as a company, your company in some ways has, uh, there's some writing about this that I, that I'll, I'll send to you and you can cite in the notes.

Brendon Cull: (32:27)
But about companies that essentially have their own souls after a period of time. And I kind of buy into that is that you, if you are, if you've been around that long, it's, you can call it culture, but it's really there's some ways there. Mm-hmm. So my advice to young leaders is find those people who can tell you stories about the company, the city, um, the neighborhood, the community, organization that you care about and soak that up. Mm-hmm. Uh, soak that up so that you understand the moments that you're in. Don't be, um, uh, don't be limited by it. Right. But learn from it and then use your knowledge of how things work to be able to shape that future that you want.

Marianne Lewis: (33:07)
Thank you, Brendon. Uh, really just maybe a broader thank you. I, I treasure your friendship, your wisdom and expertise and today very much your inspiration in all you do at the chamber. I don't know if you have ever heard the phrase that it, some of the studies on the paradox of choice and that there are many, many ways to find purpose and get involved that they can be paralyzing. But in this great city, we have the chamber and it is a tremendous resource to all of us. So thank you for your leadership.

Brendon Cull: (33:36)
Thank you, Marianne. So glad to be here. Thanks, Grant. It's great, great space you have here. Um, get engaged with what's going on here at this campus. This is the, this is the future here.

Marianne Lewis: (33:44)
It is. Thank you.

Grant Freking: (33:46)
Thank you for listening to this episode of Bearcats Mean Business. If today's episode sparked a new idea, challenged your thinking, or helped you see your path a little more clearly, be sure to subscribe, leave a review and share the episode with someone in your network. Thanks for being part of the conversation. And remember, real world success begins here at Lindner.

Grant Freking: (00:00)
What does real world success in business actually look like? Welcome the Bearcats Mean Business, the official podcast of the University of Cincinnati's Carl H. Lindner College of Business, where inspiring career stories, honest lessons, and fresh business perspectives from the people building impact in the real world. Come together, tune in for inspiration, practical business insights, and forward-looking thought leadership on how ambition turns into action. And now for today's episode.

Grant Freking: (00:30)
Alright, Hamsa, thank you for being here on Bearcats Mean Business journeying down from Mason, Ohio. Appreciate it. Yeah,

Hamsa Tadpatri: (00:37)
I'm super excited to be here.

Grant Freking: (00:38)
Awesome. So let's start with some basic background stuff. Um, where are you from? What brought you to Lindner? Everyone's got a story, everyone's got an origin story, so what was the, the process that kind of brought you to Lindner and where do you hail from?

Hamsa Tadpatri: (00:51)
Yeah, so, um, I've been living in Mason, uh, for about, I would say seven, eight years now. And I knew that I wanted to stay definitely kind of close to home. So I think a lot of people that come to uc know that that's gonna look like, you know, right here or Miami or OSU, kind of like, you know, staying close to home, I guess. And I ended up, you know, doing a little tour here, uh, and I got to see, you know, the business school and then also actually do, um, like the college closeup. Uh, didn't know it was called that, but yeah, got to experience that firsthand and honestly just fell in love right away. And later on, I, I remember end of senior year I got an invitation to come to Empowerment Day, which is an event that the LE Women in Business, um, host. And just going there as well, I was just like, honestly, I just knew that this was the place for me. Uh, like I think that's something that a lot of people that come here kind of go through. They see the building all the opportunities that LE has to offer, and I just knew that I wanted to, you know, come here and experience college life. So, yeah.

Grant Freking: (01:54)
Yeah. Was, um, when you were looking for a college, or even like, I guess like a business school environment, how far high on the list was like feeling welcomed or feeling at home related to like, academics and everything like that? Did you want to feel like you kind of had like a second home when you were kind of moving on to the next experience? Oh,

Hamsa Tadpatri: (02:11)
100%. Um, I think that's something that was very like, top of the list for me. Uh, I think once I came, did, you know, a lot of these visits at different universities, I think the first thing that I looked for was, did I feel welcomed? Um, and then once, you know, like you experienced that firsthand and I felt like I did here at uc, um, I just knew that, you know, I wanted to come here, so

Grant Freking: (02:33)
Yeah. Yeah, the vibe's gotta be right.

Hamsa Tadpatri: (02:34)
Exactly. Yeah.

Grant Freking: (02:35)
. So who or, and or what has most influenced, I guess, your path to this point and where you are in your college career at this sport? Who, who, who were the things, what are the principles maybe that have guided you so far?

Hamsa Tadpatri: (02:48)
Yeah. Um, I think so far, like at uc, it's definitely been the support system that I've found here, obviously. Um, me being close to home, that's a bonus. So I mean, having family like right, like so close by. Um, honestly, yeah, that's obviously like a huge support system. But then outside of, uh, just family, I think it's the friends. And then also just like the faculty support, um, that I've been able to experience has been amazing. Um, so I think that's definitely been something that I've been able to close, you know, been able to really hone into. So, yeah.

Grant Freking: (03:20)
Sure. Yeah. So when you were looking for colleges, did you have like a, or I guess even maybe when you entered entered uc, did you have like a kind of a written out plan or a sort of a jotted out plan to like what you wanted to accomplish?

Hamsa Tadpatri: (03:33)
Yeah. Um, honestly, yes, I would say so. So I think, uh, right after I graduated, um, you know, high school and then also knew that I wanted to come to uc, of course, uh, I think I definitely made a list of, um, you know, probably like orgs that I wanted to be a part of mm-hmm . Uh, I knew that was like something that I would really be engaged in here, uh, specifically at Lindner. Um, and I think I was able to, you know, actually accomplish that as well. So, uh, I know like even just on our website, we have a ton of, you know, different like opportunities kind of just listed on there, um, to like get involved in right off the bat. Uh, and then also before classes started, we have like, kind of like a orientation situation, um, where you can kind of just come in and also experience all like the, um, you know, orgs that we have, uh, on campus, not just within Lindner. So, um, you know, just experience that, like involvement fair was honestly a great experience for me personally. And then kind of talking to people sh like, you know, people sharing their experiences in different orgs was definitely very helpful.

Grant Freking: (04:33)
Yeah. Um, my follow up to that is, okay, you had your plan and you said it was very thorough. How did it, how has that changed now that you're, what, two years in? Yes. How, how has that changed and guessing maybe in like some of the specifics, but also kind of like in the scope of what you expect for yourself?

Hamsa Tadpatri: (04:48)
Oh, for sure. Um, I mean, like I said, definitely had kind of like an idea of what I was looking for, I would say as far as, you know, orgs and involvements. Um, but I think once I got here I did see kind of like, uh, a little bit of a space where I could potentially give back in a way. So, uh, that kind of looked like, uh, me, you know, me starting my own orgs as well. Right. Um, so I think, uh, that was huge. So even just like right off the bat when I, you know, my freshman year itself, um, I saw that there were, there was room for, um, you know, me being able to give back and that looked like, you know, starting two orgs. Um, so for me personally, uh, that was, uh, FBLA and then Hindu Yuva. Um, I think both orgs, uh, even previously, even in high school I was very involved in. Um, so I knew that I wanted to bring that here at uc. Um, so I think that's how it started. And then I slowly developed into, um, you know, kind of, uh, getting involved in other things as well. So, yeah.

Grant Freking: (05:43)
Yeah. Let's, let's dig deeper into that because when we spoke, um, ahead of the podcast recording, I noted how just how much involved and passionate you were about the student orgs, which comes across here too. Yeah. What I guess is like your kind of inner purpose, um, is it a mix of personal and professional? Like what do you, are you trying, are you seeing a gap that needs to be filled for students like you? What's sort of your rationale for being so involved with multiple organizations founding a couple, being a part of other ones being in leadership positions as well? Yeah, yeah.

Hamsa Tadpatri: (06:12)
Yeah. Um, I think for me personally, uh, it comes down to me wanting to be involved. Uh, I think that's something, uh, that's really stemmed my interest in, you know, all of these, uh, you know, organizations kind of like giving back in that sense. Yeah. Uh, so I think that's how it started. Uh, and then also me seeing that, um, progress, uh, of me kind of growing as, you know, not just a student, but as a leader on campus. Uh, I think I've really seen that just these past few years. Uh, I mean, obviously starting an org, I would say it's probably one of the most challenging stuff that like I honestly had to experience just because it's finding, you know, the right group of people. Uh, and then also that support system from, you know, a faculty member as well, you know, to find that advisor.

Hamsa Tadpatri: (06:55)
Uh, and then also on top of that, it's also finding people that are interested in joining the org as well. 'cause obviously it has to resonate with you in some sense. So I think all of that in all definitely was a process. Um, but I mean, obviously we were able to, you know, get through that and then also find kind of a solid base of people that are really interested, willing to give back and also come back, uh, you know, to our meetings every other week. So I think it's been a really great experience for sure.

Grant Freking: (07:23)
Yeah, that sounds amazing. What have you found out about yourself as a student leader that maybe you didn't know when you first entered college?

Hamsa Tadpatri: (07:31)
Yeah. Um, I think one of the biggest things is I, I would say even beginning of high school I guess, uh, I was somebody that was very shy. Mm-hmm . Um, so I think, uh, kind of breaking out of that shell was me putting myself out there in these organizations. I think that's kind of, uh, what I've seen in myself. And then even just in college, I think, uh, I mean, high school and college is such a big difference for sure. Um, you know, like the amount of people, um, and then even just the communities that you get to be a part of, just very different, I would say. So I think, um, me being able to push myself out there, I think that's something that I've able to learn a lot about myself. Um, you know, just, uh, yeah, just I guess, yeah, me just putting myself out there.

Grant Freking: (08:14)
Right. Yeah. And what have you, have you, um, learned how to manage people? You know, some, it's probably a little tough sometimes 'cause I'm sure some of these people that are in these organizations or your friends too, and Yeah. Have you had any, have any hard conversations about like, Hey, maybe I need to step it up or maybe I need more out of you. Yeah. How have you sort of handled those conversations as you develop into a never growing responsibility of a student leader?

Hamsa Tadpatri: (08:36)
Yeah. Uh, I think that's definitely a huge part. I think communication, um, with your like, you know, peers and then also when you have an exec board, I think that kind of very much differs mm-hmm . And I think kind of finding that balance between, you know, friendship. 'cause there are, you're so right. 'cause there are quite a few friends, uh, of mine who are part of these organizations and even a few that are on, you know, leadership with me. Uh, so I think finding that balance is, uh, it was definitely kind of hard, I would say, to navigate. Um, but I think, uh, I'm getting better at it, uh, you know, day by day for sure. Um, but I think there have been definitely a few, um, times where I've had to kind of sit down and kind of figure out like what their role specifically looks like. Um, 'cause sometimes, you know, life gets busy, like honestly, I completely understand. Um, so some people aren't able to, you know, give back to the degree that they might've, you know, kept on or kind of signed up for. Um, so I think kind of having those tough conversations definitely learn a lot through that. Uh, 'cause sometimes it's how you approach those conversations and stuff like that, uh, that really do matter, obviously to keep those relationships. Yeah. So I think that's definitely been something that I've had to navigate for

Grant Freking: (09:44)
Sure. Yeah. Well, that'll serve you well, definitely in the professional environment for sure. Yeah. In a few years. Um, let's switch to switch to your academics. Um, three majors is a lot. Sounds like a lot. Yeah. So tell me about the combination you have. You have business, you're studying business analytics, finance and operations management. What's your rationale for the those select three?

Hamsa Tadpatri: (10:03)
Yeah. Um, uh, so it first started just with business analytics, me coming in. Uh, and I would say that kind of came in, uh, through some of my experiences with analytics and kind of having some, uh, like hands-on experience. I guess just working with, um, you know, data specifically. Uh, and then kind of, uh, making, kind of telling a story with it, I guess. Kind of making sure that people that aren't as hands-on are able to understand it in a way. Um, that's kind of just like easy to comprehend for like, pretty much just like a everyday person, you know? Yeah. Like that might not know like how these numbers really work.

Grant Freking: (10:37)
Yeah. Making it digestible.

Hamsa Tadpatri: (10:38)
Yes, exactly. Um, so I think just making it, uh, you know, like visually easy to understand all of that, like, as you said, digestible for pretty much anybody to really comprehend. Um, that was something that I knew I wanted to like hone in on. Um, so I think that started off, you know, of course with business analytics and I knew that I wanted to pursue that. Um, and then that's slowly kind of translated into me also adding operations management later on. And I think I see myself, uh, you know, down the line having some kind of a managerial role, um, like, you know, some sometime in the future, uh, like that, that was, uh, that kind of prompted me to add operations management. And I also think understanding the behind the scenes of, you know, any kind of operation business is very important. Um, like just fundamentally just to know. Uh, and then, uh, later on I also kind of chose to add finance as well. Uh, I actually joined, um, an work called Women in Finance. Okay. Uh, and that kind of really helped me hone in on like, you know, me wanting to actually pursue that as well. I think all three of those, um, are, you know, like a very cool, um, like mixture of different majors that we have to offer. Uh, and I think it'll definitely serve me Right. You know, even in the future, so. Yeah. Yeah.

Grant Freking: (11:53)
Absolutely. So, um, let's transition to talk about co-op a little bit. What type of co-op experiences have you had so far?

Hamsa Tadpatri: (12:00)
Yeah. Um, so I've, uh, it kinda started, uh, during high school for me. Um, so I was able to experience, uh, like a finance and accounting internship, um, with GMI companies. Um, and that was definitely I think my first leeway into, um, you know, the business world. Uh, I guess, uh, and then later on I was able to actually also get an experience with, um, a financial planning firm. Um, and I think that was definitely something that really I think, I guess opened my eyes to like the finance world specifically. Mm. Um, I was able to do some analytics work with them as well. So I think, um, kind of honing in on those skills, I knew that I wanted to, you know, pursue that in the future as well. Um, and then, uh, later on as well, I was actually, uh, offered an opportunity actually through a professor here at uc. Oh. Um, which was, uh, it's called, um, little Fork Child Advocacy Center. Um, so, uh, I think in a way it's giving back, uh, to the community in a way as well. And I think, uh, being able to work with kind of like a nonprofit as well, definitely very rewarding, uh, in my opinion. So I think experiencing those different opportunities have definitely, uh, you know, strengthened not just my skills, but, um, you know, also just me as, you know, a young, like, you know, developing professional. So,

Grant Freking: (13:17)
Yeah. And co-op experiences come in all shapes and sizes too, so not, not just sort of the, sort of the traditional one too. So it's cool to hear your perspective on that for sure. On, in terms of like the soft skills maybe you've acquired, what have you, what surprised you the most? Or what have you learned about working in professional environments that you kind of, you just couldn't pick up on in classrooms because it's just not there?

Hamsa Tadpatri: (13:39)
Oh, yeah. Um, I think it sometimes, uh, in classrooms, uh, there's a lot of like collaborative work that you do, at least, um, that's kind of what I've noticed. Um, and, you know, the classes that I've taken so far, um, I think sometimes even, um, I mean, when you're kind of working like a desk job, I would say, uh, you do obviously hop onto meetings and stuff like that, have a little bit of collaborative environment, but there's a lot of kind of just, uh, hands down time where it's just like, you're, you, you just have to focus on your specific tasks that you're given. Um, yeah. So I think that was definitely a little bit of an adjustment. It's something new that I had to learn when I, you know, started taking on these internships. Um, like obviously, you know, that you have like this project to work on, but I think that collaborative environment, uh, I'm very used to that at uc, you know, when you're involved, uh, even just with classes, working on projects with a lot of people.

Hamsa Tadpatri: (14:27)
Um, so I think that was definitely something that I was able to experience, uh, that was, uh, new. Um, and then I think as far as like soft skills, um, I think that's something that you learn as you, you know, kind of like experience, um, you know, co-ops, like, you know, being in a professional environment. Um, but I think, uh, uc like definitely prepared me so well for those experiences. I would say, um, when you are part of organizations and also leadership, I think you have to keep yourself in a professional, conduct yourself in a professional manner for sure. Um, so I think taking, um, those bits and pieces of experience that I'm able to, um, you know, hone onto, like I was able to for sure, you know, utilize in these experiences.

Grant Freking: (15:10)
What would you say has been the biggest challenge that you've encountered? You know, in college? Could be academically, could be in on a co-op. Yeah. What's like been the biggest challenge that you can remember so far?

Hamsa Tadpatri: (15:21)
I think, uh, for me, uh, I, I feel like I've been able to slowly navigate through this, but it's definitely like the time management aspect. Hmm. Um, you know, I feel like we have a lot of students who are such huge, um, like overachievers, even some, so it's just like, I think balancing not just, you know, the academics, the extracurriculars, and then some people managing, you know, multiple jobs as well. Um, like I think for me personally, um, like finding that balance was definitely, um, a bit challenging in the beginning. Um, but I think we are able, we get so many resources, um, specifically, um, you know, the career coaches, academic advisors, uh, I think that extra support that I was able to kind of lean on, um, made the biggest difference for me personally at least. So I think just talking to them, having other conversations on, you know, what classes to take.

Hamsa Tadpatri: (16:10)
Um, you know, I think even just figuring out what orgs, uh, are, you know, kind of worth, you know, investing like my full energy in, I guess in time. Yeah. Um, I think figuring that out was definitely the biggest challenge. Um, 'cause sometimes, uh, like at least for me personally, I just wanted to be part of really like everything honestly. Um, so it was just, uh, kind of honing in on like, you know, those specific works that, you know, you wanna give back to and you know, you're gonna get, um, you know, a ton out of as well experience wise. Um, and then also I think the first and foremost thing is obviously doing well in classes as well, so being able to balance that. Uh, I think that was definitely something, uh, that was definitely, um, an adjustment curve for me, but I think, you know, it's going well so far, so Yeah.

Grant Freking: (16:54)
Yeah. Don't want to extend yourself too much. Exactly. Gotta remember that you're a college student too. Yeah. Even though if you want to do all these professional pursuits. Yeah. Um, let's talk to like the, the, the future a little bit and sort of where you want to position yourself in your field. What sort of business trends are you paying attention to that most relate, I guess, to your career field and or trends that could affect your career field as you look into the full-time job pool in a couple of years?

Hamsa Tadpatri: (17:19)
Yeah. Um, I think for me personally, um, for like full-time specifically right now, um, I know for a fact that I would probably wanna go into something, um, with analytics, um, or even with, you know, the operations management, even something with, um, you know, a supply chain, um, kind of like, uh, structure as well, I guess. Yeah. Um, so I think for me personally, I think it's, uh, really figuring out, um, like obviously what you wanna pursue specifically. Uh, I think I was able to kind of understand that through like, you know, the co-op experiences. Um, and I think now I'm able to like hone in on like the analytics aspect now. So I think I would probably wanna look into opportunities, um, that are able to, you know, I'm able to do a lot of hands-on analytics work, so I think that's what I see myself, um, doing in the next couple years full time, so. Right.

Grant Freking: (18:12)
What excites you the most about, I guess specifically the analytics field? Um, and I guess what keeps you kind of staying interested in it? Um, what is it, is it specific, specific subsets or what is it that excites you about the, the field of analytics? Yeah.

Hamsa Tadpatri: (18:25)
Um, I think for me personally, uh, it's the fact that it's constantly changing, honestly. Um, uh, I think with, you know, like AI being so huge now, um, you're able to use so many different tools, um, to make, uh, you know, this data kind of like comprehendible, um, for like anybody like we were talking about earlier. Yeah. Um, but I think that's something that really like, personally excites me. Um, and yeah, I think just having that experience is definitely gonna be super helpful.

Grant Freking: (18:54)
All right. Let's close with some, some advice. Um, and maybe some look back. Where would you tell your first year self, if you're walking through the doors of Wonder Hall for the first time, your first day of class Yeah. Freshman year. What would you tell young Hamsa?

Hamsa Tadpatri: (19:09)
Yeah. I think for me, uh, it's keeping an open mind. Uh, I think I had kind of this outlook on like how I wanted, you know, my college experience to look like. And there's obviously nothing wrong with that. Um, but I think for me personally, um, just leave the door open. Um, you know, take in the opportunities that you've, you've been given. Um, I think, uh, I think that's the biggest thing. 'cause even, um, you know, in college, I think a lot of people are so busy with everything that they do, but I think it's taking time also for yourself. Um, I think that's something that I've able to learn. Um, it took me a little bit, not just freshman year Yeah. But, uh, it definitely took me all my sophomore year to like kind of like figure that out as well. Um, but it, it's just kind of finding time for yourself as well. Uh, 'cause that's obviously very important. Um, so like, you know, keeping yourself not just busy with, you know, like your academics and like extracurriculars, but also time for yourself. Um, and that can, obviously for some people, uh, I think that just looks like just working out for some people, reading or even just kind of hanging out with friends. Um, so I think that's something that I would definitely tell myself, um, like freshman year myself, so, yeah.

Grant Freking: (20:18)
Yeah. What do you think or what do you hope you'll be most proud of 30 years from now when you're a successful business person? What do you think you'll be most proud of when you look back on your Lindner experience 30 years from now?

Hamsa Tadpatri: (20:31)
Um, I think for me personally, I would definitely be, um, very proud of the fact that I was able to kind of establish something, um, here at uc. Uh, I hope that obviously it's able to, you know, continue, um, you know, throughout, uh, you know, after, after like, you know, I graduate, graduate

Grant Freking: (20:50)
Of

Hamsa Tadpatri: (20:50)
Course. Yeah. Yeah. Um, but I think, uh, you know, starting these organizations, I feel like I'm very proud of, you know, how they've been able to, you know, shape not just my journey, but uh, also the people that are involved in it as well. Um, so I think that's something that I will look back at and feel definitely, um, proud that I was able to accomplish that. 'cause I, I obviously know like how much time, you know, was spent on it. Yeah. Um, the people that really supported me through that, you know, like journey of, you know, establishing it as well. Um, so I think that's something that I will look back at, um, and definitely feel proud of.

Grant Freking: (21:24)
Yeah. Hamsa, thank you for your time today. Thank you for making the trip down rom Mason. Um, we're certainly glad you're here at Lindner and we really value, especially as a student leader, influencing other students in a positive manner. So thank you for coming on Bearcats Mean Business. Thank

Hamsa Tadpatri: (21:37)
You so much for having me. Appreciate it.

Grant Freking: (21:39)
Thank you for listening to this episode of Bearcats Mean Business. If today's episode sparked a new idea, challenged your thinking or helped you see your path a little more clearly, be sure to subscribe, leave a review and share the episode with someone in your network. Thanks for being part of the conversation. And remember, real world success begins here at Lindner.

Grant Freking: (00:00)
What does real world success in business actually look like? Welcome the Bearcats mean business, the official podcast of the University of Cincinnati's, Carl h Lindner College of Business, where inspiring career stories, honest lessons, and fresh business perspectives from the people building impact in the real world. Come together, tune in for inspiration, practical business insights, and forward-looking thought leadership on how ambition turns into action. And now for today's episode,

Marianne Lewis: (00:31)
Dan, it's such a pleasure to have you here today. Thank you.

Dan Schimberg: (00:34)
You're welcome. I'm excited.

Marianne Lewis: (00:36)
I think this is a great opportunity from for us all to, to learn from your experience, your role model. I mean, I think your, personally, I think your career journey is fascinating as an entrepreneur and as a leader. And I wondered if we could just dive in there, because you started rehabbing a single property near uc, the University of Cincinnati, and it was, I think in the 1980s. What did you see that others overlooked and right our backyard?

Dan Schimberg: (01:03)
Well, I was a student at uc, and it was back in the, when the, when the, uh, movie animal house was filmed. And honestly, you could not find a nice place to live. And I'm not talking about granite countertops. I'm I, I'm really referring to windows that operated, maybe central air conditioning, off street parking, just normal, uh, middle class regular people who want a nice place to live. And uc was, was emerging from a, from really a commuter school to, to a university, um, where people wanted to live there and they just couldn't find good housing. And so what I wanted to do was create housing units that really didn't exist and safe, clean, good, good working windows, functional, maybe a dishwasher. And I remember the other landlord saying, I don't know why you're fixing it up. You don't need to do that. They'll rent it anyway. And it was at a time long before the internet, of course. And, and so there was no reputational harm that other landlords had by treating their residents poorly. Mm-hmm . And I didn't care about that. I wanted to provide a product that didn't exist.

Marianne Lewis: (02:30)
It strikes me that because you were a student at uc, you also knew how much it mattered to those who were actually living in those facilities. I mean, it was personal as well as professional.

Dan Schimberg: (02:40)
I was never able to stay in one of my housing units for more than one year because they were so poorly maintained and the landlords were, were not respectful of their residents. Um, and I really wanted to change that.

Marianne Lewis: (02:58)
I, I think, I think, think it's remarkable how much you and your efforts have changed our, our region all around the campus. And thinking of you as an entrepreneur, because it's always about taking risks and managing uncertainty, but you were making bets on neighborhoods that a lot of people were avoiding at the time. Um, how did you develop the confidence to keep investing when the outcome was so uncertain? 'cause that's such part of the process.

Dan Schimberg: (03:25)
Ignorance. It's bliss. Yeah. There, uh, had I, it was, it was more difficult than I thought it would be. Um, entrepreneurs by nature are extremely optimistic human beings. Um, I really planted a flag in Corryville mm-hmm . At the time. And Corryville was a, an outright dangerous neighborhood. Um, but so perfectly located between what was then General Hospital, which is now uc Health and the University of Cincinnati. And it was just, it, it's a pretty small neighborhood. It, it's really only four blocks. Mm-hmm . By about five blocks. And it just didn't seem like a massive task to start rehabbing houses. And they were so beautifully located. Yeah. Um, but the crime kept popping up. Mm-hmm . Uh, I remember once we were rehabbing a multi-family building in Corryville, and the kids in the neighborhood kept throwing rocks through our new windows. And so I got a bunch of the kids together and I said, every Thursday the ice cream truck's gonna come. I'm buying all the kids in the neighborhood ice cream from the ice cream truck if there are no broken windows this week. And that's ultimately how that's beautiful. We built, got the kids in the neighborhood to start behaving, and I just had an open wallet at the ice cream truck that came down, Corryville and all the kids lined up and I bought 'em all ice cream every Thursday. .

Marianne Lewis: (05:01)
Okay. I love that. It's, it's, it's a different version of the Broken Windows Theory for Right. New York City. I like it. It's the ice cream version of it. Yeah.

Dan Schimberg: (05:10)
It's great.

Marianne Lewis: (05:10)
Um, we've been talking about your entrepreneurial capabilities and, and how you started with your risk taking. I wanna move to leadership, but before I do, I think it would be helpful for others to understand how you grew. I mean, can you talk a little bit about your scale? 'cause we said you started with one property, but I think before we go to the leadership, it's helpful for people to understand you now run a big organization and that scale is really impressive.

Dan Schimberg: (05:38)
Yeah. It, it, um, uh, when you start a little company, you never imagine it being a big company. Mm-hmm . And it really happens organically for most people. Um, and, and so we really, I was a one man show. Uh, I would go see a banker and then I'd show an apartment, and then I would fix a dishwasher, and then I would paint, and then I would go look for another house to buy. And so, and what happens is in small organizations is you, you only have so many hours in a day. And so the only way you're gonna grow an organization is begin to lever your time mm-hmm . And by levering your time, you take off one hat at a time, um, and you give it to someone else. You, you hire a leasing agent and, and now they're out. And you have to trust that they're doing what they say they're gonna do.

Dan Schimberg: (06:37)
And, and one of my, uh, core values is, uh, hire the people you trust and trust the people you hire. Um, I, I've always given our employees a lot of autonomy, and I tell them to bring their brains to work mm-hmm . And I expect that. Um, but really it was, it was a slow, slow crawl. Uh, in the beginning. I really wanted to be a big fish in a small pond, basically own all the buildings myself, and do whatever I could do within the capacity of my own ability to finance those. That turned out to be a, a decision that slowed my growth for really 15 years until I had to go out and embrace and find investors, give up slices of the pie, and become a smaller fish in a bigger pond, which ultimately allowed, uh, us to accelerate our growth over time.

Marianne Lewis: (07:43)
And it is such a challenge with, with entrepreneurs with scaling because it, it, you're trading off some of the control, but you're doing that through trust, as you said, through partnerships. Yeah. How did your leadership change? I mean, you talked about a little bit how you scaled, right? With handing off the hats. I love that I can picture the in Yeah. That metaphor, but how did your leadership style?

Dan Schimberg: (08:06)
I had to get used to people, um, bringing problems to me. Um, when you're doing it by yourself, you're really, you're the problem solver. Mm-hmm . And, and to lead, you're really asking your team to continually identify problems, finding solutions. Um, and, and, and getting out of the weeds was very difficult for me because I was the guy doing all the weeding for a long time. Um, but it was really building that core group of what now is almost our executive team. Mm-hmm . Uh, because they've been there for 20 years, many of 'em, um, and really allowing them to run with the ball. They understand the core values of the company, and I would hold them a accountable, uh, to, to, to lead, uh mm-hmm . For me and with me. And, and I think, you know, my leadership style is one that is, was rather unstructured in the beginning, I will admit mm-hmm . Um, and, but I really leaned on them to, to find the solutions and, and drive the company to our core values that we all agree on. Mm-hmm . We also, um, uh, quickly moved to having kind of annual, uh, retreats to make sure that the communication interdepartmentally was done. It, it, it, it's one of the bigger challenges as you're growing an organization, that everyone knows what people are doing. Yeah. Why they're doing it, how, when, and so interdepartmental communication, uh, has always been a, a focus of ours.

Marianne Lewis: (10:08)
And it sounds like you've, you've, even, as you've, you've grown and been more hands off, you're still very hands on. And maybe it's in the conceptual pieces, and you think about how, how all the puzzle pieces are fitting together. So, well, one of the things that we've talked about, I mean, you work so closely with our, our uc Center for Real Estate, and I, I've come to deeply value that group. I mean, I, I'm, I'm not in real estate, I'm in management, but it is so interdisciplinary, and it's something I valued with Gary Painter coming in and thinking about our work with engineering and with dap. I'm gonna ask you to put a little bit more of your urban planner hat on, because I love, when I hear you, you, you talk and think aloud. You do think, like, very much like an urban planner, even though you're very much a, a investor. And you think about the finance side, which is more what we think is maybe a typical real estate approach. Um, but you, you seem to balance in, I think, in exceptional ways, the realities of business growth and the investments and partners that come in there with the responsibility of shaping neighborhoods. And I wonder if you could talk a little bit about how you manage that balancing act there.

Dan Schimberg: (11:19)
I care deeply about the neighborhoods, especially in the neighborhoods of the uptown. Um, they're critically important to the university thriving. Mm-hmm . Um, in the late nineties, short Vine as an example, really fell into deep despair, and there was a lot of serious crime homicides. And we gathered the University of Cincinnati, the city of Cincinnati, a couple major stakeholders along with us, and we did an urban renewal plan. And I had never been involved in an urban renewal plan before. And, and it created a roadmap. And many of these urban renewal plans go, go into a drawer somewhere mm-hmm . And it's a, and it's a big wish. Um, and, and we took that urban renewal plan and carried it around with us and went into the Corryville Community Council and said, this is what they said we had to do. And continued to drive that. I'd go to the city, I'd go to the university.

Dan Schimberg: (12:24)
This is the plan we all agreed on. And I kept pulling it out. That plan was the 2004 Corryville Urban Development Plan. And if you look at that plan today, we have, we have completed that plan. Okay. That's impressive. And that plan called for 2000 people to be new residents, to be living on short vine, for example. Big, one of the big challenges in doing this is dragging the investors along because investors, they may not care about the neighborhood. They are only returns, they're only looking at returns. Mm-hmm . And, and so we have a passionate group of investors who are willing to follow me into these neighborhoods. That's fantastic. And, and I think it's critically important. Mm-hmm. And it has paid big dividends because when you are successful, you are part of the renaissance of a neighborhood, and you do get those returns. And so, um, yeah.

Dan Schimberg: (13:24)
There's a, there's a writ high risk there, but there is a reward there of mm-hmm . Being in Corryville 20 years earlier than others. And in Mount Auburn. Um, and, and I'll tell you one of the best examples is we bought an acre of land in Corryville where the Eden sits today, and it was auctioned off by the city of Cincinnati in the early 1990s. And they started at a dollar, and I bid a dollar, and I bought it for a dollar. No one else bid on that in the middle of a real slum, uh, where crime was very, very high. And so that's, that's the reward side of it. That's the risk side of being able to see a neighborhood, being able to see something around the corner before it's developed mm-hmm . And, and then relying on your instincts to, to take it there and understand the risk reward of that.

Dan Schimberg: (14:25)
Mount Auburn is another prime, prime example mm-hmm . Where everyone was talking about connecting up to town and downtown. Yet there had been no private investment in Mount Auburn in almost 60 years other than Christ Hospital. No. Investors were going in there, building housing, building apartments, building infrastructure, remodeling the parks. And we identified that 60 years, the message when everyone was talking about Right. Connecting uptown and downtown Uhhuh . And so we, we assembled the land for Wellington Alto. So we went into Mount Auburn, found investors who were willing to spend a hundred million dollars in Mount Auburn, and now Mount Auburn has taken root.

Marianne Lewis: (15:07)
I I love hearing you, Dan, because I can, I can picture in my mind, I mean, you are such a developer. I mean, yes, there's the physical development, there's the neighborhood development, but there's very much the human development. I mean, and you see these working synergistically Yeah. And you, you clearly are able to share that vision effectively with investors, whether or not they, not or not, they really wanna lean into the really big pictures It is gonna pay off Yeah. As

Dan Schimberg: (15:30)
Well. And the, and you have to bring the neighborhood along. You have to, I mean, especially to

Marianne Lewis: (15:35)
Sustain

Dan Schimberg: (15:36)
The fact that Hollister Street is a two-way street now, which allows people to cut up to Mount Auburn from Vine Street, which used to be one way down. Mm-hmm. Right. It, it takes ambulance traffic away. It helps. Right. But you have to be able to bring these ideas to the neighborhood, to the city, and marshal them through. And there is no return on investment for us to do that other than get to see the neighborhood flourish mm-hmm . And ultimately all boats rise with the tide.

Marianne Lewis: (16:06)
Absolutely. Absolutely. I mean, I think in that, in that developer mindset, let's go a little bit more into the human side because it strikes me that you've always taken your, taken your role as a role model and a mentor. Seriously. And when it comes to young and rising leaders, I'd be interested in what qualities you're looking for in, in young professionals entering real estate or entrepreneurs today that you see, oh, I see that spark. What are you looking for?

Dan Schimberg: (16:35)
Um, you know, it, it's a great question. First of all, when I meet my mentees, um, I always meet them e either seven 30 or eight in the morning for coffee. So the first thing I look for is someone who shows up on time. Mm-hmm . Absolutely. And I also look for people who aren't so worried about making a lot of money early on. Um, so I'm looking for people who are trying to develop the craft. Okay. Um, and, and understand that a lot of people come and they say, I want to be a developer. There is no major for developers. There is no, a, a, a developer is someone who has suburban, suburban planning mm-hmm . Some architects, some finance, some, and a lot of different pieces that are put together. Um, and so what I look for in mentees who come and ask for advice is, where should I jump in?

Dan Schimberg: (17:38)
What do I need to be learning? They're not asking, how do I go make the most amount of money tomorrow? Mm-hmm . Um, it's really what do I need to learn? Where do I go to get that? How can I be involved? Can I watch, you know, something I learned, uh, through a process is people only learn through three different ways. Experience, exposure, and formal education. Mm-hmm . The three E's mm-hmm . And how people pursue that is, is very, very important. College MBAs very important educationally. Mm-hmm . But then it's, are you gonna go swim? Are you gonna go watch someone learn how to swim and, and are you gonna take these plans down to the permit desk mm-hmm . Or are you going to send someone else? And getting that experience and exposure is really how you ultimately become a developer. And so I look for, I, I look for kids especially who are prompt and want to understand how they need to learn the craft. Mm-hmm

Marianne Lewis: (18:45)
. I love that. Three pronged. I mean, they're all ease. They are. And we, we invented cooperative education here because we believe that they can work together really well.

Dan Schimberg: (18:56)
They need to.

Marianne Lewis: (18:57)
I, I mean, if you can build that synergistic Yeah. The exposure, the experience, and the formal education, it's a win-win. And you've worked with uc and Lindner a long time. I mean, you have quite a pipeline of Bearcats in your office. I wonder what, how you might describe our students if you were talking to other employers as we, we build out our pipeline for partners, co-op, co-op employers in the future. Is there, is there something that you see of the work that we do and, and what can we learn from your experience? Well,

Dan Schimberg: (19:30)
The co-op program is, is unmatched, uh, as far as I know. Um, and I encourage so many employers to take advantage of it because it's really the other, the other two E's. Yeah. Um, it's the experiencing, the exposure, exposure that, that, uh, co-op students are getting. And, and you need all three to learn to understand, um, and to succeed. Mm-hmm . Um, the students coming outta uc, especially in the co-op program we've had, we've had so many. Our vice president of property management, who's on our executive team, started as a part-time leasing agent, and then co-op, and then ultimately has worked, uh, his way all the way through the ranks. But we love our uc co-ops.

Marianne Lewis: (20:20)
I, and I love to hear that, Dan, very much, I mean, you were once in their shoes, right? You were a student. If you were looking back and, and talking to yourself then, is, is there any particular lesson or lessons you'd really want us to be instilling in the student today to help them on this journey?

Dan Schimberg: (20:41)
That's a, that's a great question. Um, you know, we, I'm thinking about our co-ops that, that we've hired. We often try to get co-ops in six month tranches instead of three months. Mm-hmm . Um, we found that they, three months, by the time the onboarding, the training, um, it, it felt too short to us because there's so much to learn. We found that our, our six month co-ops were very, very successful. And so we would kind of seek our six month co-ops. Um, but it's, uh, I, I told my son, uh, uh, who's in Chicago working for a real estate company. I said, Jake, do not worry if the, if you need to go get your boss a cup of coffee. Absolutely. That's fine. You're in the room, you're learning, you're getting experience, you're getting exposure. And, um, so it's really, don't worry about if you're sweeping a floor or you're preparing a spreadsheet or you're getting coffee, or you get called into the executive team meeting to help, uh, present something. It's all part of the, it's all part of the final cake that you're building. Yeah. It's all, they're all ingredients. Um, and you have to, you have to be willing, uh, to do all of it. You do to, to bake a cake. You can't just put, you know, you can't forget the flour or the eggs or the, or the vanilla. Um, you really need all the ingredients to become a, a young professional.

Marianne Lewis: (22:14)
You know, don't

Dan Schimberg: (22:15)
Be too proud.

Marianne Lewis: (22:16)
Don't be too proud, and don't be too inflexible. Because the one, one piece I heard you saying, it was something we thought so much about when we were moving the college to mandatory, um, co-op, which engineering and DAP have been, since it's the onset, certainly engineering from the onset, we realized we needed to have a more flexible program because different employers want different things. And I think the sixth month is a wonderful example of something we could lean into more. Yeah. Because I agree the ups and downs of, of startup and, and ramp down, there's a whole value to every, the way you just said it. We could use you as an example for others. So thank you for that.

Dan Schimberg: (22:54)
You touched on real estate being interdisciplinary mm-hmm . And I remember speaking with, uh, Dr. Ono Santa Ono mm-hmm . And he, and he really pushed kind of the interdisciplinary piece to it, because real estate is, it's architecture, it's urban planning, it's finance, and, um, it's sales. It's, it's, it's every piece. And so the interdisciplinary approach to it is, is critically important to be teaching and for the students when they're considering co-ops, uh, to explore and understand, even though they have their eyes set on finance or their eyes set because mm-hmm . That experiential learning, uh, helps, helps you when you're putting your assumptions in the spreadsheet mm-hmm .

Marianne Lewis: (23:45)
Absolutely. And look, learn how to work with others from different disciplines Right. Into that bigger model. I, the, the other piece that's a little different from interdisciplinary is, is almost inter level. And what I mean by that is you think about the community in a really beautiful way, and I have found in, in my line of work that the greatest leaders think about their jobs well beyond their organizations. You think about Cincinnati, you've always thought about Cincinnati, and you, it shows in your volunteer work Yeah. As an example that goes well beyond, I mean, into healthcare and research and community organizations. I, I would love you to share a bit why you take the time to do that, because I'd love the students in particular to understand there's a, there's a bigger world out there than your job, and your job matters a great deal, but you've, you've leaned into volunteerism in some really impactful ways. Why,

Dan Schimberg: (24:39)
Um, I get enormous satisfaction from, uh, seeing a problem and being part of the solution. Mm-hmm . Uh, and that core satisfaction, uh, runs through my professional life and my non-professional life, and no different than I saw a problem of not being able to find decent housing as a student and wanting to be part of that solution is the same when I see elderly people and they're unable to care for their yard. And I got involved with people working cooperatively, and I could see how this helped. I could see when I walk down to over the Rhine and there's, and I'm stepping over litter on my three mile walk to Findlay market to understand that we have a trash problem in Cincinnati and getting involved in Keep Cincinnati beautiful. I get enormous personal satisfaction and professional satisfaction out of seeing and identifying a problem and being part of a team that finds a solution to it. Mm-hmm . And it really will be my next chapter when I hang up my developer hat. Um, I want to lean into that. I want to be part of the solution as problems come up. Cincinnati has been a great city. It's a five generation city for our family, and, uh, I really want to make it as good as it can possibly be, and we'll do what I can, what I'm able to contribute,

Marianne Lewis: (26:27)
Which we've already seen, is enormous. Thank what you can contribute. I mean, I, I sometimes feel for the students today in that and, and, and debate how to show them how much this area has transformed. This is not the same place it was when I got here in 97. You've been here since 80, and it, it continues. What do you see as the future? You look in your crystal ball, I mean, where you just shared where you're gonna go. Yeah. You're really gonna lean in more to the community. What do you see as the opportunities for Cincinnati and particularly the area around campus?

Dan Schimberg: (27:03)
Uh, I, I love the urban core. Mm-hmm . Uh, in Cincinnati and other urban cores. I, I'm, I'm so interested in the lifestyle of living the urban core versus suburban. Mm-hmm . Um, uptown is really the second largest economic engine in the city. Um, I guess you could consider the greater Cincinnati airport as, as, as a, a big economic engine also. Mm-hmm . When you really look at it as downtown and uptown, the, the, uh, interchange at Martin Luther King and the innovation corridor, uh, still remains really the biggest untapped urban resource in Cincinnati, uh, by far mm-hmm . Uh, the biggest opportunity. There's, there's a billion dollars of development still to happen, and the connectivity of all of the jobs up here at Children's Hospital, uc, health University of Cincinnati, the ho, you know, the other hospitals, Christ Hospital, and the proximity to downtown, the, the proximity to the highways, the, uh, the, the corporate, uh, integration that you see is, is managing through their 18, 19 hub.

Dan Schimberg: (28:23)
Um, I think there's just enormous, enormous upside, uh, in the uptown still. Mm-hmm . Still laughed. I, I think, you know, we've seen a a, a, we've seen a great recovery from, from the blight of the eighties and nineties and really early two thousands. Um, we have repopulated the neighborhoods, uh, I think working on, uh, the pedestrian connectivity mm-hmm . Is gonna be critically important. It's gonna be very, very interesting as ai, autonomous vehicles and all these other pieces continue to, um, emerge. It's obviously going to change the trajectory, but I think it's quite, um, I think, I think we're well on our way, but there's a lot of rope left in these neighborhoods.

Marianne Lewis: (29:14)
I think that's very exciting. Yeah. Because there is more potential. Excuse me. We'll cut that out. Mm-hmm . Um, it, it's exciting because there is such potential ongoing, I mean, we're gonna continue to watch it transform, and I hope it continues to make you proud. It certainly makes me proud and energized of what's possible ahead.

Dan Schimberg: (29:35)
And you see the university, I mean, practically weekly, they're announcing new buildings, new initiatives, new uh, programs, how they're, how they're rolling things out, how it's growing. Um, I mean, the, this university is not sitting on its hands and

Marianne Lewis: (29:51)
It stands for under construction.

Dan Schimberg: (29:52)
That's right. Um, but, but I mean, it's, it's been extraordinary. Mm-hmm . And our growth and the neighborhood's growth is only but for the growth of Children's Hospital, uc Health, the University of Cincinnati, their surrounding institutions we're really, um, part of it. But it it's the institutions that need to continue to thrive and create the jobs and create the platforms for the students to want to come here and stay here.

Marianne Lewis: (30:23)
Yeah. Oh, make it a magnet. Yeah. I mean, a attractor and

Dan Schimberg: (30:27)
Retention and retain Yeah.

Marianne Lewis: (30:28)
Both. I, I absolutely agree. Um, this has been such a wonderful conversation because it is, it epitomizes why you're being recognized at our major event for the uc Real Estate Center, and I'm really excited about that. Thank you. And I wondered if you'd just share why and how you've been working with the, the Center over these years, because we so appreciate you.

Dan Schimberg: (30:54)
Thank you. Um, it was really interesting. We were doing a lot of work in Tallahassee, Florida at the same time. We were doing a lot of work here, um, about really, if you go back 10 years, um, and I was already really involved in the real estate school here, a BEARE member. Mm-hmm . And then you had asked about leadership and employees. We had several employees really step up. Craig Kaufman in our office, um, really stepped up into a, a leadership role at the, at the school. And I think it's just critically important. Um, development and real estate are just, are just so important to a city and mm-hmm . Supporting the real estate school like we were doing at Florida State University that has an extraordinary real estate school. Um, it, it, it's brought us a lot of joy and a lot of success and we've been able to watch these kids grow out of this program into real, real estate professionals Oh, absolutely. In the city. And I have a lot of friends who run companies in town that, uh, came out of the co-op program and came out of the real estate school specifically, uh, that are thriving. And it's been really very, very rewarding to watch and see.

Marianne Lewis: (32:13)
I love to hear that. Thank you for helping us develop the future professionals of development of real estate, but also for continuing to help this, this region thrive. Great. It is such a pleasure, Dan.

Dan Schimberg: (32:24)
Thank you. My pleasure. This has been fun.

Grant Freking: (32:27)
Thank you for listening to this episode of Bearcats Mean Business. If today's episode sparked a new idea, challenge your thinking or helped you see your path a little more clearly, be sure to subscribe, leave a review and share the episode with someone in your network. Thanks for being part of the conversation. And remember, real world success begins here at Lender.

Grant Freking: (00:00)
What does real world success in business actually look like? Welcome the Bearcats Mean Business, the official podcast of the University of Cincinnati's Carl H. Lindner College of Business, where inspiring career stories, honest lessons, and fresh business perspectives from the people building impact in the real world. Come together, tune in for inspiration, practical business insights, and forward-looking thought leadership on how ambition turns into action. And now for today's episode.

Grant Freking: (00:30)
Welcome Finn. Welcome Bowen. Thanks you both for being here. Um, let's start at the beginning. Your upbringing. Would you guys say your upbringing was defined by brotherly love or brotherly shoves?

Finn Alexy: (00:43)
So definitely brotherly love. I think at this point in our careers, you can't really have the high amount of output and results at this point without it being brotherly love. Like it kind of speaks for itself with the results. Um, I just think that my relationship with Bo and I've described this publicly as well, that it's almost like I'm wearing a suit of armor and it feels like I can't lose because I have this super strong relationship. And even if everything went south, even if all our business business ventures failed, I would always be able to fall back on the fact that I have the best brotherhood and best relationship with my brother in the world. Nice. Hmm. Awesome.

Bowen Alexy: (01:19)
And yeah, exactly the same on this side as well. Uh, Finn and I have grown up together. We've done almost everything together since we were little kids. Um, we have a very similar story, very similar background. And just to be able to do this with him and so much together, it's just been a dream come true, honestly. So

Grant Freking: (01:36)
Was the goal always to get in the business together?

Bowen Alexy: (01:39)
Um, no. Honestly, we, you know, it's Bo in capital was something that kind of just happened. Um, when we were in New York City and we talked to Steven Wang and formed that first kind of handshake deal, um, we needed an LLC to run that transfer through and make that first investment. So Finn and I, forming that together was not something we initially planned long term, but something that we just developed on the fly and then something we just kind of ran with and took off.

Finn Alexy: (02:04)
And in regards to our family's company, it never felt like something that we could fall back on. Mm-hmm . Like even sophomore, junior year of college, it was still like in, its up in its upbringing, I should say. Yeah. And we, we never thought that like, oh, this is the plan post grad. Uh, but then right before graduation and post COVID, it did take off and then we were like, this is the best possible decision we can make.

Finn Alexy: (02:29)
Not only for our family, but for our personal careers and just moving forward. Uh, 'cause our dad needed help, our mom needed help. And then it's, it's really just we want to support them as much as we possibly can. 'cause you see these stories of like, there's no succession plan, uh, founder of a company's work until he is 60 or 70 years old. Right. And we didn't want that to have to be our parents. Like if they wanna work, obviously yes. And we could absolutely use their help, but we didn't want to feel or have them feel forced to kind of work into their late sixties or seventies.

Grant Freking: (02:59)
Yeah. So then the integration to the family business felt more natural for you guys. You never felt like, all right, even after we graduate, we have to do this. It's more like, we want to do this. Yes. Yep.

Finn Alexy: (03:06)
Absolutely. Yep.

Grant Freking: (03:07)
Cool. So what, what was your first like, business or like entrepreneurial memory from when you're younger?

Finn Alexy: (03:12)
So first entrepreneurial memory actually comes from our dad. Mm-hmm . Uh, when we were like 10 and 12 years old. And Alexy Metals first got founded, he actually took a home equity line of credit out on our house and pretty much risked everything and leveraged everything in his own entrepreneurial path. And he bought a skid of braised scrap. And what braising scrap is, I can get an a braising a little bit. It's basically a process like welding where you're connecting two parts in a manufacturing process. But instead of, instead of fusing those parts together, you're applying a precious metal filler alloy. So like gold, silver, platinum, and palladium. And this skid that he bought happened to be gold and there was a gold bra ring in between a ceramic and a metal joint. And then he knew that the gold was in there because at his former job, he had sold that gold bra ring into that component.

Finn Alexy: (04:03)
So he took the risk, bought the skid with no plan on how to get the gold out, which was very risky at the time, especially our, especially for our family. Mm-hmm . Uh, and then he ultimately did figure out how to chemically refine it back out into pure gold, like pure gold bars, pure gold grain. And that is basically the origin story of Alexy Metals. And Bo and I being 10 and 12 years old as he's going on this entrepreneurial path and entrepreneurial journey, uh, we were coming home from school and like crushing up these components in our basement, trying to expose the gold braze alloy to later refine back out and be pure. So we just kind of grew up around entrepreneurship. We grew up around our dad having these like serious ambitions. Yep. Uh, he's been a huge inspiration for us.

Grant Freking: (04:46)
What are like the overall kind of leadership lessons that you've kind of gotten from your father over the years that you maybe you could distill, distill down to like just a couple of them that you kind of take with you and you kind of need something to fall back on?

Bowen Alexy: (04:58)
Sure. Yeah. There's so many, you know, we've watched him for years and we've been around the business from when it first started in our basement, all the way to what it is now, which is roughly a $20 million company. So to kind of see that and kind of grow with him and see the steps he took has just been incredible. Um, and one of my key takeaways since Finn and I manage a lot of the day to day at Alexy Metals is, um, you know, be hard on problems, be soft on people, kind of thing. Like there will be problems, there will be things that come up, you will get frustrated. But it's important to remember not to take out those frustrations on the team. And remember that the problems are what are causing all these frustrations and rifts, you know, it's not the people. So you just gotta be easier on your people. And um, that's something he taught us really early on because these people are working for you and they're here to help you. So to treat them poorly is just not a good thing to do. Right.

Grant Freking: (05:45)
Yeah. Treat 'em all as part of the solution, right? Mm-hmm . Yep. Now Northeast Ohio is not too, too far from Cincinnati, but it's not exactly close. How did you guys end up at Lender and uc? Mm-hmm .

Bowen Alexy: (05:54)
Cool. Yeah. I, uh, answer this one. Sure. Yep. My, um, when I was a senior, um, kind of, I didn't really know where I wanted to go to college. I didn't know what I wanted to study. I was like, is college even for me kind of thing. Yeah. Um, so what I did is I did a big Ohio tour. So I went to Ken Bowling Green, I went to Miami, Ohio State. I went to Cincinnati, I went to ou. I did all the big Ohio schools 'cause I wanted to stay in state kind of thing, uh, in-state tuition and whatnot. Mm. Um, and I toured all these schools and I didn't like bg, I didn't like Miami. Ohio State was like, yeah, we'll let you in, but you gotta spend a semester at our Mansfield campus. And I was like, well, no. Came to uc.

Bowen Alexy: (06:34)
And I was like, wow, this is incredible. I'm like, the campus is amazing, the people are amazing. Everyone I talked to was really nice. And they really sold this vision of like, this is the school for the future. Like next truly does live here. And the people that come through here leave this place and bring something valuable not only to their workplaces, but to the world as well. And, you know, I'm a big fan of red, white, and black, or those are my colors. So it was a really natural fit. And from the second I came here my first day in August, 2020 to when I left, I had a blast. And all the lessons and friendships I forged here are always with me by heart. So,

Grant Freking: (07:07)
Yeah. And the two years since you guys graduated, what have, what have you, what were your main takeaways? I think that what are like the main Lindner lessons, I guess, that you would, you guys that stick with you in your day-to-day dealings?

Finn Alexy: (07:19)
Sure. I would say, and we've actually pitched this and like kind of shared this with some uc classes already. When we're guest speaking, I have two really strong examples, but the first one would be like, I think you can go in upward spirals in your life very quickly. And that's what happened to Beau and I, like, we graduated, we got a article in the News Herald because we were like these brothers that graduated at the same time, like, how did a 22-year-old and a 20-year-old graduate at the same time? How did they start at their family's business? So we did get like an article feature coming right outta college, which is very rare. And then that article feature was actually read by a state senator named Jerry c Serino, and he issued us citations as Ohio's fine as citizens. Mm-hmm . And then because we were named Ohio's fine as citizens, it was this pressure of like, how do we live up to this award?

Finn Alexy: (08:07)
How do we live up to this honor? And then that was the origin of BowFin Capital and the origin of like, how can we justify this achievement? And that's when we reached out to DUB and ultimately became like podcast guest speakers and economists there in the short term while we were speaking on their podcast mm-hmm . And then ultimately angel investors in the company. So it's like, it's crazy how you can just go on an upward spiral very quickly, but that doesn't happen if you're not working as hard as you possibly can every single day. Keeping your mind open to opportunities and also trying to provide value to other people is like my main takeaway from the whole thing. Uh, with our dub example, uh, we basically reached out to them and it was a pitch deck that I had done in Lindner for Derek Schumann's class, uh, digital entrepreneurship where I was like, literally week before graduation, I was scrolling through Instagram reels, like just procrastinating doing an assignment.

Finn Alexy: (09:02)
And I came across this ad for a real startup company and my project in the class was to do a pitch deck on a real startup company. So the company was called Dub mm-hmm . Uh, they were like a innovative stock trading brokerage app where you can copy portfolios of other people or famous investors or famous politicians. So I took them, I did the project for 'em, got an A plus, got a 4.0 GPA in my last semester. And then fast forward to like post Ohio's fine as citizens citations, I was scrolling through my MacBook and like literally just deleting files, like deleting Spanish syllabuses and just stuff I didn't need from undergrad. And I came across that pitch deck and I was like, maybe I should try to send it to someone at dub, send it to 'em for free. And I was like, Hey, this is a college project that I got a a plus on, like if you guys could use this to get venture funding.

Finn Alexy: (09:51)
Absolutely. Me and my brother also have this precious metals background in the brazing and industrial side of precious metals. And one of their portfolios was based around precious metals, and that's how we got the invite to New York City and ultimately the handshake deal to become angel investors. And then when we came back to Cleveland from New York City, our lives were kind of forever changed. Mm-hmm . So yeah, it's just like you can go on these crazy upward spirals and if you provide value to people first, like our dub example where, hey, here's a free pitch deck, here's a social media content, here's venture funding from us, here's unlimited amounts of promotional value, then it's insane how it's reciprocated and it's insane how these things kind of come back to you in a multitude of ways.

Grant Freking: (10:35)
Yep. Yeah. Let's translate that to like maybe like almost like a mentorship thing for like current students. How would you talk to current students or or phrase discussion about like risk and failure and experimentation mm-hmm . Given your journey, your father's journey, and sort of box that into something that would be digestible for like current lit students if you were maybe in your next next guest lecture for them.

Bowen Alexy: (10:57)
Sure. Yeah. We always, when we're given those presentations, uh, end it with like some key takeaways that we've learned. Um, and one of the things that we've learned and what we pitch to students in these classes is that you have to lead with value. Like you have to come in and provide something. Like not just a service, but provide some insights, provide something like maybe they're not seeing, not just in addition to capital. So you gotta form almost like a partnership and provide further value than just, Hey, we're gonna give you some money and then we're gonna be hands off. Like when Finn and I got involved with all of our angel investments, it's, it comes with a strategic partnership aspect and we talk with the founders, give our ideas. If they run with 'em, great. If not, um, it's like, well, you know, just let us know if you need help or if you wanna bounce some ideas kind of thing. But, um, we always say lead with value, you gotta make yourself stand out and that's a great way to do it. Yeah.

Finn Alexy: (11:46)
I would just say the same kind of like upward spiral example. Like everybody in their last semester of college is go going through the motions. So like, the grades really don't matter. I have a job lined up post grad, like they, they don't really care. And I would just tell everybody in class like, start putting your best foot forward now because it's unbelievable how fast you can rise and how fast you can move through the ranks. Mm-hmm . And I would just say like, as much as you could put into something is what you should be doing. Like our prime example, when it was our last semester, I didn't have to get a straight a semester. Like we had a job lined up at our family's company, we didn't have to get good grades, but it was that decision to get a 4.0 GPA in my last semester.

Finn Alexy: (12:27)
That led to me trying on the Derek Shewmon project, which ultimately led to dub mm-hmm . So I would say these school projects and these school examples can turn into real world examples if you put your best foot forward and work as hard as you can. Yep. And Derek Shewmon was one of the classes that we actually guest spoke in, so I was like pointing at a chair and I was like, I literally sat in that chair less than a year ago mm-hmm . And we've turned this story into all of these successes. So you can do the same if you just try as hard as you possibly can, work hard and do the right thing.

Grant Freking: (12:59)
You just never know do you,

Finn Alexy: (13:00)
You just dunno. No, it's

Grant Freking: (13:01)
Crazy. Let's go back to the family business for a second. How do you resolve disagreements and keep things business and not personal when operating the family business?

Finn Alexy: (13:10)
In terms of like, interacting with our employees or Yeah. The family dynamic.

Grant Freking: (13:14)
Yeah. Well, let's touch on that then, the family dynamic after that. Yeah, sure, sure,

Bowen Alexy: (13:17)
Sure. Um, yeah, again, uh, kinda what I said earlier, what Grayson's quote and one of his big lessons is hard on problems, soft on people. Yeah. So, you know, we've had a, a couple of those scenarios where people are having problems or people are frustrated, you know, the work isn't allocated properly. So they've raised those concerns. And what Finn and I have tried to build in our tenure as a culture of collaboration and teamwork, like we're all just helping each other out. If we see someone's overload with work, we step in and help. You know, we make sure everybody's helping. There's no one like, just kind of sitting around while someone's doing all the work. So we've kind of created a culture where, you know, communication is key. If someone's having a problem, we've had a few of these, they can talk to us whenever, call, text, or we can sit down on a one-on-one, we will work together with them and we will identify the problem and help them find a solution. And we've done that a couple times successfully. And a lot of the times it's just, Hey man, you know, I'm working really hard and, you know, so and so isn't doing that much and I kinda need some more help. It's like, all right, we'll talk to 'em, we'll spread the work out kind of thing. So, um, just a real culture of collaboration, teamwork, helping each other out.

Grant Freking: (14:19)
Do you feel like the employees at this point now are comfortable coming to you guys for, for issues like that? For sure.

Finn Alexy: (14:24)
Absolutely. Yeah.

Grant Freking: (14:25)
Mm-hmm . Yeah. And so is there anything, um, I'm wondering about past experiences or was it just growing up in the company or other past experiences that kind of helped you guys get to that point of being able to resolve, you know, disagreements like that? I guess like, you know, peacefully not to say like anyone, anyone doing crazy, but sort of like smoothly and kind of like professionally. Sure.

Finn Alexy: (14:42)
I, I think it's more about just earning the respect of the people that have worked there for longer than Bo and I have mm-hmm . Like, especially coming into the company like immediately after graduation, we were putting ex in executive roles. 'cause it's our family's company, we understand the inner workings of it, but some of these people who were say on the production floor are like, oh, those guys don't know what they're doing. Those guys haven't seen the rapid growth. Those guys don't understand how we do this specific job, for example mm-hmm . But me and Bo coming into it knew that we couldn't change too many things at the same time. Like, we were going to make changes and everybody knew that, but we wanted to do it slow and we wanted to respect the processes and the things that they were already doing mm-hmm . And then we approached that by basically being like, Hey, this is how we currently do it.

Finn Alexy: (15:24)
We understand it and we respect that this is how you do it, but how can we troubleshoot it and do it better moving forward. Mm-hmm . So that was kind of the logic there. Uh, we did have to earn our respect too, just based on work ethic as from not only the employees at the company, but also the industry as a whole. Uh, we did work like 14 hour days coming outta college. We worked a 36 hour long shift where a machine went down critical machine. And then once it got turned back on, uh, there was a pile of production jobs that we had to get done and it was sun up to sunrise until they were all done. So that earned a lot of respect there as well. Mm-hmm . And then just our own ventures in BowFin capital and some of the things that we're doing on the side is very easy for people to be like, okay, these guys are serious not only about their career at Alexy Metals, but their career in general.

Grant Freking: (16:10)
Mm-hmm . Yeah. My next question is actually, and you kind of answered it there was like, did you feel the need to prove yourselves, but it sounded like you didn't even need to, you just showed up and instead of just telling them that you're gonna do it, you just show up and do it. Especially when there's a critical situation

Finn Alexy: (16:21)
Happening, and that's the, that's the right way to do it too. Yeah. Yeah. Like if you just start talking, then nobody takes you serious. Yeah. But it's all about getting your, rolling up your sleeves and doing the work yourself. Yeah. Right.

Grant Freking: (16:30)
Let's, let's expand the scope of the conversation a little bit. What innovations and disruptions, I guess maybe to your, maybe your industry or maybe just business in general mm-hmm . Sort of excite you guys or maybe even concern you a little bit about what's happening in the business world. Sure.

Finn Alexy: (16:43)
So our industry is very traditional manufacturing. It's slow moving. All of our competitors are multi, multi-million dollar companies, hundreds of millions dollar companies or billion dollar companies. So while they are innovating, they're innovating very slowly and they don't feel the need to implement modern technologies into their current manufacturing processes or into how they sell these brazing alloys to their customers. Mm-hmm . So that's really where we've come in and where our data's come in in a lot of ways. Uh, like Bo can touch on some of the innovations with the website and some, some things like that.

Bowen Alexy: (17:17)
Sure. Yeah. Absolutely. Um, in 2020, Grayson and his team at the time launched an initiative to form the first e-commerce platform in our industry where customers can buy product braise alloys, um, even gold and silver we offered at one point, we don't do that anymore, but you could just buy like your shopping on Amazon, you add it to your cart and check out and it's tied to the precious metal markets.

Finn Alexy: (17:39)
Yep. Which was an innovation that has never been done in our industry before. Yep, yep. And there's never been anyone who's experimented with e-commerce either, but it's a very successful, very profitable revenue stream for the company.

Bowen Alexy: (17:50)
Oh yeah. And not too much work. We just have to update the pricings that make sure the inventory's up to date and, you know, but we're gonna really dial that in. That's a big plan of our future expansion and end of 2026 and even 2027, we're gonna get that up and going have it be one of our chief revenue builders. So

Grant Freking: (18:07)
When you guys, uh, do talk to students and, and building, I guess kind of like you tell 'em about the sort of new things that are going on your company with the, the, uh, both in capital mm-hmm . What are some of the questions you guys get in return from them about if they wanna sort of emulate your path or just general advice about kind of like, what's like step one? Um, what are some of like the, I guess the more common responses from like, I guess the current students or like the even people that may reach out to you online or whatever it is.

Finn Alexy: (18:33)
Sure. Like there's a lot of questions about people's, like self-doubt, whether that's starting a company or whether that's like failing at something. Yeah. And our advice to them in, if they're in those moments where they're down is like, okay, in, in those moments you have to flip your thinking mm-hmm . And be like, what if I can pull this off? And then it changes the whole conversation of like, oh, I'm down. I can't figure this out, I can't do this, I can't do that. Yep. But then you flip it and you're like, what if I'm the guy that can figure this out? And then it's just nothing but up from there. It starts one of those upward spirals of thinking and actual momentum like I was talking about earlier. Yep.

Bowen Alexy: (19:11)
And I would say too, like I was involved with a couple clubs and they did goals where you set like, you know, there's, there's an acronym out there I'm forgetting right now mm-hmm . But you do little goals. You don't just say, all right, I'm gonna run this marathon. And you say, all right, I'm gonna start by running one mile today, tomorrow I'll run, maybe try to do two or three. So you start small and I kind of, what I would say is, don't say I have to be here. Just say, I'm gonna do this today. I'm gonna learn this, I'm gonna execute on this. Start small. And little wins contribute to big wins.

Grant Freking: (19:40)
Right. Do you guys recall any like, sort of, I guess, hard truth moments from mentors? Whether it was, you know, an, an instructor here, you mentioned, you just mentioned clubs. Yep. You know, from, maybe it's from your dad or someone in the business about, you know, learning from like hard truth moments. Like, hey, maybe sort saw someone sat you down like, Hey, I need you to fix this and here's what I want you to do. And like, how did you kind of respond to that and sort of take the next step?

Finn Alexy: (20:03)
Sure. Interesting question. Uh, unfortunately no, like there's never been like a monumental mentorship moment. Just a bunch of like little bits and pieces of knowledge that we've strung together into this story. Um, but yeah, it's almost now like we, we don't have any mentors 'cause we've rapidly rose to the level of mentorship ourselves, whether that be giving back to students or like this podcast for example mm-hmm . So it's hard to be asking other people for the answers when you're supposed to be the person with the answers. So I, I would always recommend mentorship and recommend you go find somebody in a more successful position than yourself. But even like career-wise, we've rose to the level of our current mentors. So it's very hard and that there's never been like a wake up call kind of thing for many of these people because it's like we've always found the right steps forward and we've always figured out how to do the right thing and work very hard along the process.

Bowen Alexy: (20:57)
Yep. And, you know, we'd be foolish to not say like, guys in our industry who have been doing it for like 30 years, like our dad, for example, we're not ever gonna not take his advice or not ask him about a situation. So of course he'll be a mentor in a lot of capacities. And even our sales manager, shout out Mr. Craig Chastin wanted to get him in there. Yes, sir. Um, was, you know, they have over 35 years of industry experience. So to not take advantage of that would just be foolish on our end. So

Grant Freking: (21:23)
Yeah. Let's, let's end this with a pitch Sure. For students, um, that are thinking about, um, you know, maybe they're 17, 16 years old and the sim maybe a similar, uh, position where you were, they're taking their tour of Ohio and they're Yep. Trying to figure out what school to lock into mm-hmm . What, what is it about lender that kind of, um, is like the piece, just the piece of your guys', um, journey that you think has helped you? And then what would you say to students that are thinking about maybe duplicating that?

Bowen Alexy: (21:50)
Sure. Yeah. Um, well, when I was a senior too, I remember I took the a ACT couple times and I did some training where I had to rewire my brain to be more academically focused and figure out how to solve problems. And I remember coming to Lindner that really clicked with what I did that prior, that previous summer. Mm-hmm. So when I came in, I had that mindset to just succeed and do well. And Lindner gave me the tools and the chance, uh, to make that happen. Whereas like Ohio State was like, yeah, you're gonna have to go spend a semester at, um, Mansfield campus when uc was like, no, get in here. Do what you wanna do, we're gonna make it happen. And I said, all right. So this was definitely the school. This was the fit. This is the place where, you know, it's on, it's all, it's on all the posters Next does live here and this is where next is gonna thrive.

Finn Alexy: (22:38)
I just going off of like the next steps mm-hmm . Like for, even for the state of Ohio. Sure. Uh, I just think Lindner itself in the college business and uc in general is like a rapidly up and coming university. Yeah. It's probably going to be the biggest university in the state of Ohio in a couple of years. It's gonna overtake Ohio State is what I would predict. Absolutely. And I think Lindner's a huge part of that. Mm-hmm . And just to, for me and Bo to kind of be a part of that like promotion and be a part of something bigger than ourselves is what drew me to Lindner. And that's what kind of inspired us to come back and promote as much as possible. 'cause we did get an immense amount of value from professors here, from students here, uh, from our actual uc education.

Finn Alexy: (23:18)
Yep. Like if you go BO was, uh, marketing major mm-hmm . Minor professional sales, and I was a major in entrepreneurship mm-hmm . And when you combine those two things, you literally have our playbook or blueprint for BO in capital where I can identify startup companies and basically do a valuation on 'em. Mm-hmm . And Bo can provide marketing and customer service and relationships Yeah. After we book an angel investment. So it's like this perfect combination for us to kinda showcase our skills we learned at Lindner, our skills we learned in our family's business and our skills that we learned before. Yep. So I would, you know, obviously stand behind the Lindner College of Business and promote as much as possible. Yep.

Grant Freking: (23:59)
Well, I appreciate you guys making the trip down here today. Thank you for both being on Bearcats Mean Business.

Finn Alexy: (24:05)
Absolutely. Thank you for having us.

Grant Freking: (24:06)
Thank you for listening to this episode of Bearcats Mean Business. If today's episode sparked a new idea, challenge your thinking or helped you see your path a little more clearly, be sure to subscribe, leave a review and share the episode with someone in your network. Thanks for being part of the conversation. And remember, real world success begins here at Lindner.

Grant Freking: (00:00)
What does real world success in business actually look like? Welcome the Bearcats Mean Business, the official podcast of the University of Cincinnati's Carl H. Lindner College of Business, where inspiring career stories, honest lessons, and fresh business perspectives from the people building impact in the real world come together. Tune in for inspiration, practical business insights, and forward-looking thought leadership on how ambition turns into action. And now for today's episode. Jeff, thank you for being here. You grew up in Ohio and you went through the co-op program as a UC business student. What impact did that early professional experience have on the trajectory of your career?

Jeff Karcher: (00:43)
Honestly, everything, uh, really did one just financially enabled me to be able to go to school Yeah. And finish school. Uh, but secondly, I was very fortunate to get a role, uh, at an investment boutique up in Cleveland that introduced me to the institutional equities world, which back in the mid eighties, at that time, that was pretty much an Ivy League dominated industry. And I was very fortunate to work for a very well known and, and just terrific mentor. Uh, that enabled me to kind of just see what, what the business was like. And I really fell in love with it. I had always had an interest in the stock market as a kid. And, um, getting a job, a co-op job in it really kind of accelerated and really kind of confirmed everything that I had thought I wanted to do.

Grant Freking: (01:26)
Jeff, you talked, touched on your co-op experience. For students here going through co-ops. Um, they may not know exactly where they wanna land in finance and capital markets. What advice would you give them about just general exploration, about exploring opportunities in these fields?

Jeff Karcher: (01:43)
Uh, I, I would say follow what, what interests you for one. And you may find out that isn't necessarily what you really thought you wanted to do. Uh, and there's nothing wrong at all with not knowing what you wanna do for whatever reason. I just, I kind of did, but that doesn't mean everybody does certainly. Um, and co-op I think gives you a great opportunity to, you know, find out in more of a test trial kind of fashion, do I like this or not? Do I, do I excel in this Right? Or not too? Um, I was always very curious and always wanted to learn. Um, so for me, um, you know, getting into the industry that I did, one of the kind of interesting things about it's good and bad is you get to learn a little about a lot, but not a lot about a little. Mm. I mean, you get exposed to a lot of different industries, a lot of different sectors, uh, different companies, uh, and how they approach things and running a business, but you never become an expert in any of them. So that's kind of perhaps the downside. But I always thought for me, um, the one thing I liked was being able to understand a, a broader array of, of information and, and sectors. Yeah.

Grant Freking: (02:43)
What always strikes me is like, you figure out maybe what you don't want to do when you co-op too, which is, I think, so eminently helpful in your career journey.

Jeff Karcher: (02:50)
Accounting. Yeah.

Grant Freking: (02:52)
for you. Accounting For me,

Jeff Karcher: (02:53)
It was accounting.

Grant Freking: (02:54)
Okay. Okay. Let's shift to some topics on capital markets and then your current role with the Texas Stock Exchange. You spent nearly a decade leading listings efforts in the southeast for the New York Stock Exchange. For many people, the IPO process is very mysterious. Right? What actually happens behind the scenes that you can talk about when a company prepares to go public, what are like the top things that maybe people just don't know about,

Jeff Karcher: (03:17)
Uh, getting ready in time? Um, the one thing that companies quite often think of, uh, Hey, let's go public, and then in three months, six months, we're gonna, we're gonna do that. Uh, and that really can't happen that quickly. Um, you really have a lot to prepare for and going public, there's a lot of disclosure you gotta do controls, accounting, uh, audits that have to be done. Mm-hmm . Uh, HR departments, compliance departments, um, there's, there's a lot of things that companies quite often kind of forget about. They're just thinking about, Hey, we make good widgets and innovative widgets, and it's growing like crazy and we're awesome. And they know that very, very well, but they kind of forget about the backside of preparing a business and getting ready for becoming a public entity because it's a different animal. Uh, at that point, you are reporting to shareholders and to the owners of your company, and you have a responsibility for that. And there's a lot of protocols associated with that too. And not, the companies don't always necessarily have a good understanding of that. Uh, there's a lot of really good firms out there that help companies get ready to go public. Um, IPO readiness firms that consult with them and, and say, Hey, here's kinda the stage where you are. Here's the kind of industry and the company that you are will help you get ready. And they make sure that all their ducks are in a row before they go public.

Grant Freking: (04:28)
Okay. And in, in that same vein, what are the biggest misconceptions the actual founders, and maybe the chief would be chief executives themselves have about going public, about maybe what they are responsible for and not responsible for?

Jeff Karcher: (04:44)
Yeah. Well, that's, that kind of gets to one of the bigger picture issues that there's been with companies going public. Um, we're down almost 50% the number of public companies today versus 1997. Wow. 50%. And one might say, well, so what, what, what does it matter if somebody that makes widgets is private or public? Well, the fact of the matter is, public companies average about a third more employees in private companies, and they also pay them more on average. So if you do the math with that, that's better for the economy and everywhere. Um, you just have a greater society with that. And then secondly, or thirdly, you have, um, companies being private, others don't get to share in that growth, in that wealth. Um, I think one example that's gonna be become quite evident soon is you have, SpaceX is gonna go public at $1.5 trillion or something along those lines.

Jeff Karcher: (05:33)
It's a 23-year-old company. Um, why did it wait so long? Yeah. Um, they all have good reasons for it, but what if they had gone public when they were, say 10-year-old company? You know, that 13 years of growth that we've seen, all that wealth, you know, translates into your 401k, my IRA, my dad's pension, my mom's ETF, et cetera. Um, and so you wanna bring more of that private growth and private wealth into the public marketplace. And for us, one of our key missions that we have at the Texas Stock Exchange is to create an, an environment that's less onerous in terms of the reporting disclosures, which is one of the things that they would be responsible for. Uh, the costs associated with being public have become draconian in many cases. It just should not cost as much as it does to go public, but also to stay public. Um, and, um, the, the governance has been weaponized in the marketplace, and we're looking for ways, and we already have changed a number of protocols, uh, in the marketplace specific to the landscape in Texas for public companies to be able to operate under, under a, a more pro-business friendly listing environment. Mm-hmm.

Grant Freking: (06:39)
You just touched on a few of 'em, but I wanna ask like, kind of the overall question related to your position as global managing director for the Texas Stock Exchange. What is the, I guess, chief business problem that the Texas Stock Exchange is looking to solve?

Jeff Karcher: (06:51)
Um, it's really a little bit of what I just just mentioned. Yeah. And the fact of too many companies just don't want to be public or the ones that are, have a great deal of difficulty in operating publicly because of some of the reasons I I just mentioned. Yeah. You've had a transition over really 30 years, uh, and by no one's fault, but just as kind of boiling a frog kind of, uh, increase in terms of regulatory disclosure such that, you know, companies have bear a an excessive burden in many cases of, of reporting and the cost associated with it. So, for example, in Texas this past year, we actually helped author and pass some legislation that really specifically targets some of the very costly and complicated processes for being public proxy threshold, proxy oversight, uh, and then what's called business judgment rule. Um, those three things, I, I won't go into depth here on those 'cause they're, I'm not an attorney and they're very legal.

Jeff Karcher: (07:48)
Um, but they are very, they're people should know. They're just a very costly component to being public. They're very onerous, very time consuming. And so by putting in some thresholds that are specific to, um, being in Texas enlisted there, companies don't have to be subjected to them to the same degree that they currently are elsewhere. So, um, the simple way to think of that is it takes up far less time of management so they can devote it to running the business and can save significant amount of money in, in the larger the company. Perhaps tens of millions of dollars of ongoing costs of a company that come out, um, because of that subjectivity that they would have related to what we're trying to put forth.

Grant Freking: (08:28)
Sure. So what is a day-to-day like for you in trying to fulfill this mission of the Texas Stock Exchange?

Jeff Karcher: (08:34)
Yeah. Well, to date, it's been about just kind of putting together the platform. Uh, we're building it from scratch. Everything. The, the trading exchange itself, uh, has been built from scratch. Um, but also the design of what we call the listings business and the listings is what that is. What a public company, uh, that is public goes through. They are a listing on the current exchange, which in today's world is just two, it's NASDAQ and the NYSE. Right? Uh, we will be a third choice for companies to be able to have that. So for me, we, we've kind of set the stage, we've prepared our platform. Um, some of the key details for it will be filed with the SEC fairly soon so that, uh, the world and companies will know. Um, but for us, it's, it's heads down right now talking with those companies.

Jeff Karcher: (09:18)
And really, it's not selling them, it's just educating them on what we're doing because it is so transformational from what they're used to. You know, anybody in the industry or the business today, the only thing they've ever known is just to compare an NYC to a NASDAQ listing. Now it's a third alternative, and that third alternative has completely different characteristics to it than what they've known. Um, so we're gonna be very focused on engaging with companies in that regard. And, and I gotta say that the challenge for us is gonna be getting that message known outside of Texas, inside of Texas right now, the entire business community knows exactly what we're doing, um, outside, you know, very few people really kind of see it's just not been something that's been talked about nationally as much as it has. So for us, it's getting those doors open and having the conversations. And when we do have the conversations, people are very, very struck by the uniqueness of what is going on. But also too, the magnitude of what's going on. It's kind of hard for them to kind of necessarily fathom this is something that could really significantly alter their ability to operate as a public company.

Grant Freking: (10:23)
Yeah. I, I imagine if you're talking to, uh, a company, say like in Illinois, like, and you're reaching out to 'em, like, they'd be like, okay, that's great, but why should I be interested in this venture that's hundreds of miles away from me? And different, potentially different rules, different states, all that sort of stuff. What's your pitch to them in that's case?

Jeff Karcher: (10:41)
Yeah. Um, that's very true. They say, listen, I'm, I'm in Illinois, why do I care about Texas? Um, and the fact of the matter is, is the, the way it's been designed, it is, um, it's, it's kind of designed to be a, a very Texas incorporated company. So you can keep your business wherever you are, but if you incorporate in Texas and list in Texas, you are then subject to kind of a lot of the changes in the programs that we, we would have to offer. So a company doesn't have to move a single employee in order to garner some of the, the advantages that we're gonna put together. Hmm. Uh, and even still, they don't even have to reincorporate in Texas that just, that just would allow them to be able to opt in and provide some of the, the changes that have been done, uh, and the changes that will be done.

Jeff Karcher: (11:23)
There's, there's several more initiatives that we have coming Yeah. In the 2027 session. Okay. Texas only meets every other year, which is kind of interesting. Okay, interesting. Yeah. Um, so, but it's all part of a multi-year plan to be able to develop and foster further and further changes. Um, but outside of that, the platform that we will have that will be released fairly soon, uh, will be very unique too. And it will be very advantaged to a company regardless of where they're located. Um, I would say some of the interests that's really surprised me is from outside the United States. Um, uh, Canada, Korea, Japan, Brazil, Europe. Um, we've had a lot of inbound inquiries from companies located over there because I think what they kind of see at us and what we're doing, we're very aligned with just the business community in Texas, period bus.

Jeff Karcher: (12:11)
It's a very pro-business friendly state, and as a result, you've seen a significant amount of growth, uh, in the state, both in companies relocating there, but also just the growth of what, what is taking place there. And, and it's not just Texas either. It's really kind of a whole southeast region of the United States, um, is the highest and fastest growth region in population, job growth and, and GDP within the United States. And it's because it's an environment that wants to foster growth, uh, because the companies just need to have that ability to be able to grow without further constraints. Right.

Grant Freking: (12:43)
Let's transition to some leadership topics. Um, your work has involved connecting companies, investors and financial institutions. What leadership or relationship building skills have been most essential in sort of navigating that environment? And I'm sure would've been some tricky waters at times. Yeah,

Jeff Karcher: (13:00)
It's, you know, I think networking is something that, and, and networking is part of it. Um, and relationship building apply to everything. Yeah. Uh, that you do. Um, I can remember the first job that I have in the, the investment industry. Um, we were required to have so many lunches, so many meetings with folks to kind of build a network. 'cause we were also a money management business at the time too. And I just remember thinking, I'm, I'm 24 years old. I, I don't know anybody with any money. I don't know anybody of any stature. How in the world am I gonna build this network, um, and, and be able to thrive off of it and contribute to the company? And it's just bit by bit, by bit by bit and over time, and it just, it takes time. But it's something that I think you just kinda always, always kinda work on.

Jeff Karcher: (13:47)
And the way I've always kinda looked at is if, if I just help whoever I've engaged with or met, that's a connection that I have that will just grow and grow and grow over time. And you just never know where an opportunity for you might come from because of that. Or a situation where you're just helping someone. I don't, I don't, I've never done it necessarily to get compensated for it. It's more like if someone has a problem or needs a connection or needs someone some kind of support, you provide it and you help them, you when they win. And over time they just really kind of builds on itself. And I, I, I think that applies to anybody in any kind of role, in any industry. Even if you're in a very technical industry too. Um, you're gonna learn to share traits in, in the industry. And, um, I think that always just kind of benefits somebody, but if you always look to help the other person, good things will happen in time. Alright.

Grant Freking: (14:41)
Building off that, what have you learned about building trust in high stakes financial environments that's sort of stuck with you over the years?

Jeff Karcher: (14:50)
Um, be honest. Mm. Never over exaggerate. Be very candid. Be very objective. Uh, that way you never have to worry about what you said , you said it's good. Um, and I, I just think that if, if, again, it's, if you're helping somebody, helping somebody, but in, in my case, I think in the industry that I've been is you're helping them do their role. That goes a long way. Um, one, one time I had a, uh, one of my clients was kind of struggling with handling the morning call, which is this massive influx of information that, that a investment manager would have. And, um, I asked, I said, could I spend a morning in your office to kinda see what you mean by that? And he said, yeah, that'd be, that'd be great. And so I did. And so I literally sat in my client's chair and seat that morning to see what he goes through in order for me to understand how I can better process and integrate and work with him.

Jeff Karcher: (15:46)
And, and that was an eye-opening morning one. Some of my competitors I couldn't believe were actually competitors 'cause they were kinda all over the place. Yeah. I'm kind of shocked, uh, but two, it really gave me a very good perspective and understanding of what my client is having to go through that helped serve me better to be able to serve them. And I think that's also something that can apply in any industry. Um, if you better understand, you know, who you're reporting to, not who you're reporting to, but who you're, you know, trying to either sell to or work with. Um, you're gonna be able to do your job better. And what that does, I think is, is that builds trust, um, because they know you've got their back. You know, they're trying, you're trying to help them. Yeah. And, um, and that goes a long, long way.

Grant Freking: (16:27)
You went and literally put yourself in their shoes. I, I love it. You spent decades working with companies at pivotal moments in their growth. What traits have you seen in the leaders who successfully navigate these transitions, these big transitions?

Jeff Karcher: (16:43)
Hmm. Um, probably the one piece of advice that someone gave me a long time, and it it's a, a fairly well known adage is God gave you two ears and one mouth. Hmm. Use 'em accordingly. Uh, I think the best leaders I've seen, uh, for companies did just that. Uh, during times of crisis, they, they learn to listen. What is the problem, what is going on? And then because of their background experience, they're able to process that I think appropriately and, and make the better decisions, uh, being rash, uh, lashing out. Um, you know, being kind of more aggressive. I, I don't think really suit serves anybody well, uh, as a leader, particularly a senior leader at a company and during a pivotal time because, you know, you gotta put yourself in your employee's shoes like that they're concerned too, or your customer's shoes, their concern too. Um, it's just how you help them kind of navigate and get through that is what's gonna ultimately matter. And I just think the only way to do that is deep breath, listen, analyze, figure out your alternatives, make your decision, and then follow through on it.

Grant Freking: (17:46)
Jeff, after decades in the industry, uh, you're now reconnecting with the Cincinnati business community. We talked before airing about some of your, your fun experiences this week in Cincinnati mm-hmm . What role, and we've touched on this a little bit, but maybe you can expand about it. What role has network networking really played in your career and how do you make the use of it use of it now?

Jeff Karcher: (18:04)
Um, yeah. It's kinda what I said earlier. It's helping others Yeah. As networking. And, you know, that for me goes way back to when I was in school here. I mean, I reconnected as I mentioned with several friends and guys here recently. And some of that actually turned into some business related connection opportunities that, um, I'm working on. Who would've thought that, you know, 40 years later, fraternity brother, you know, would've had, you know, something like that that would apply to me today of something that I'm engaged with. You just never know. Yeah. And, and, and vice versa actually too, I'm kind of reversing course with, with another one. Um, but I just think it's like, it's just making friends and, and just being engaged with the people that are around you every day, uh, in the moment. And then in the moment over time, it's a series of moments so that it kind of becomes this large basket of, of relationships. And, you know, for me, a lot of it started back at uc here, um, you know, many years ago. And it, it's great to still have the connections from back then still today that are, that are made, uh, but they're also too making new ones too. So for me, reconnecting here with the university recently has been terrific. I look forward to doing more with the university. It's, it's been fun to kinda walk back here on campus and yeah, kinda see some of the buildings still the same and quite a few different for sure.

Grant Freking: (19:21)
Right. Yeah,

Jeff Karcher: (19:21)
Exactly. Yep. Um, I'd say it's a lot better today than it was 40 years ago. It's, it looks great. Yeah. Um, but it's, uh, you know, to me it's, it's kind of coming home to Roos and perhaps it's just, you know, my older age kind of getting to me that, you know, feels that sentimentality of being able to come back, uh, to uc, uh, and, and help others, um, I think is very exciting for me.

Grant Freking: (19:44)
Yeah. Let's close with some advice to future leaders. When you look at the next generation of leaders that are coming out of the Lindner College of Business, or perhaps elsewhere too, what skills or mindsets do you think will matter most? I guess maybe in this economy and the future economy?

Jeff Karcher: (19:59)
Um, I'm a bit old school Yeah. In that regard, but to me it's a, a firm handshake looking the person in the eye, talking very clearly. Don't mumble, don't trail off. You know, stay focused on who you are engaged with at that moment, um, I think is very important. Um, get your head outta your phone is what I tell my kids. , you know, fight on. So it's not like just the business world is my kids. Yeah. Um, and you know, last night the leadership dinner, uh, event that we had here, one of the, the things I talked about, I said, I can remember two things that p and g taught me when I first got out of school and started that have applied to me forever. Um, my kids make total fun of the, uh, the five Ps that I reinforce with them. But it, it holds very true with, with business too.

Jeff Karcher: (20:45)
It's proper preparation prevents poor performance. Uh, and that applies to everything, to everybody all the time, no matter what. And I think about the times where I failed or, or where I didn't do as well as I could have, um, like this podcast and proper preparation, you know, would've prevented poor performance. I think is is something that always applies. Uh, and it's something I think that perhaps gets forgotten about in today's environment because we've become so short term. Uh, I think with whether it's just the digitization of the world, whether it's through devices or the way we receive information and news flows and communication is very short. We're not reading as much, we're not writing as much as lengthy as we were. Um, I think that's important to really kind of think through and, and be very thorough in everything that you do. Um, and, uh, yeah, so it's a little bit of old school, but at the same time too, you know, the economy in the world has adapted so much that it's become very decentralized.

Jeff Karcher: (21:40)
So, for example, in finance, or most of my career, New York was, was it, that was the centralization of if you were involved in finance, it was New York period. Today, that's not the case at all. In fact, one of the things we talk about at the Texas Stock Exchange is JP Morgan has more finance employees in Texas than they do New York today. Um, many other firms are getting along the same kind of ratio too. That would've been un unimaginable years ago. Um, so as people think about their careers and what they're looking for, just know that it, it does change. And it's just because it is the way it is today doesn't necessarily, it's gonna always be that way. So keep an open mind to that. Um, but if you stay, stay focused, show up, do your job, you know, and just be very disciplined, um, success will come.

Grant Freking: (22:28)
Okay. Last one for you. If you could give your younger self, your younger Jeff, who is co-opting here at uc, uh, years ago, um, if you give yourself one piece of advice, what would it be?

Jeff Karcher: (22:40)
Deep breath. Most daily hiccups are just that they're daily. Okay. And they're hiccups.

Grant Freking: (22:45)
Deep breaths. That's it. Love it. Yeah.

Jeff Karcher: (22:48)
I let myself get caught up in the moment too many times too quickly without taking that deep breath, pausing, reflecting, thinking about what really should be thought or, or what actions should be taken after that. Um, I don't think it ever hurts to deep breath count 1, 2, 3 and then try to respond,

Grant Freking: (23:06)
Think that applies to everything in life and not just business. Yeah. It's sound advice. Well Jeff, thank you for being here. Thanks for being on Bearcats Me Business. Alright.

Jeff Karcher: (23:12)
Thank you very much too.

Grant Freking: (23:14)
Thank you for listening to this episode of Bearcats Mean Business. If today's episode sparked a new idea, challenge your thinking or helped you see your path a little more clearly, be sure to subscribe, leave a review and share the episode with someone in your network. Thanks for being part of the conversation. And remember, real world success begins here at Lindner.

Grant Freking: (00:00)
What does real world success in business actually look like? Welcome the Bearcats Mean Business, the official podcast of the University of Cincinnati's Carl H. Lindner College of Business, where inspiring career stories, honest lessons, and fresh business perspectives from the people building impact in the real world, come together. Tune in for inspiration, practical business insights, and forward-looking thought leadership on how ambition turns into action. And now for today's episode. Amanda, welcome. Thank you for being on Bearcats Mean Business today. Busy week for you. I know,

Amanda Wait: (00:36)
Yeah, my pleasure to be here.

Grant Freking: (00:38)
Let's talk about your job, just like full on job title start antitrust lawyer. I have no idea what that really means. , can you, can you explain that to me and, and to our listeners?

Amanda Wait: (00:46)
Sure. So, um, I think people might know more about what an antitrust lawyer does today than they did 20 years ago. When I started out in this profession, uh, fun story, when I told my parents that I was going to be an antitrust lawyer, they, uh, they're like, well, you can just be something sensible like an engineer . What does that even do? Um, so at most basic, an antitrust lawyer is charged with helping clients enforce the federal and state antitrust laws in the us. And what that means at, at a practical level, is ensuring that every company has the opportunity to compete on a level playing field. So there's gonna be winners and losers. Some companies will compete better than others, some will have better products and services. And it's really kind of, you know, back to economic principles, supply and demand. Okay. Whoever has the best products wins. And, uh, at most basic, we help clients tell the story of how, you know, what they're doing in their business or transactions that they are thinking about doing will ensure that that playing field stays competitive.

Grant Freking: (01:51)
Okay. Thank you for the breakdown. Is this something you envisioned when you were, um, taking business classes here at uc, or was this something that you thought of in law school?

Amanda Wait: (02:02)
No, I'm actually one of the few people who knew exactly what I wanted to do with my life from early on. I've been very fortunate in that area. So I decided to become an antitrust lawyer right around 1999, 2000 when I was studying economics here at uc. And there were two things happening. I was studying kind of microeconomics 1 0 1, and we were talking about supply and demand principles. We were talking about monopolization theories and kind of the basic principles that the US antitrust laws are, are founded on. And at the same time, kind of out in the world more generally, the US Department of Justice was suing Microsoft for alleged monopolization behavior. So I had a real life example as I was studying this in my textbooks of kind of how this plays out in the law. And I just became the biggest nerd and was following the Microsoft case with interest. And, you know, my interest kind of grew from there.

Grant Freking: (02:58)
Okay. Now, once you graduated and everything, you didn't necessarily take the safe route as something we talked about beforehand, um, in your career. In fact, um, you told me that you passed on the, you called it a generous offer from a New York City law firm to go work for the government. Why would you do that? ?

Amanda Wait: (03:15)
You know, my mom asked me the same question back then too. Um, you know, why would you take a job that pays a third of what you could make? Um, she, you know, kind of cried a little bit and asked if I would ever pay off my law school loans. Um, and I did, I did pay off my law school loans eventually in my forties . Uh, but, you know, I took the job because I think that there's more to life than money. And especially early in, early in your career, opportunities matter more than financial gain. And there's always time in your career to, to take the maybe more lucrative financial job. But if you can start your career off with great experience that will pay dividends later in your career. So when I was coming outta law school, I had the opportunity to work at a big New York, you know, kind of white shoe law firm, which kind of the dream that everybody aspires to when you're in law school or many people aspire to.

Amanda Wait: (04:12)
Uh, but I had the opportunity also to work at the Federal Trade Commission and be a frontline antitrust enforcer. And, you know, at that point I had been thinking about antitrust for about five years, you know, my time at here at uc, and then in law school. And I said to myself, you know, if, if I'm really gonna do this, if I'm really gonna be an antitrust lawyer and I wanna find out like what it's really like and what the day-to-day is, I've gotta go all in. Mm. And so I went to the Federal Trade Commission, and it was still one of the best jobs I ever had. I had amazing experience. I wasn't, um, you know, stuck in a room reviewing documents for a year, like many of my law school classmates who had chosen to go to law firms. This was back when you actually reviewed documents and not just on, you know, on computers or using

Grant Freking: (05:02)
Ai. I'm, I'm

Amanda Wait: (05:02)
With you. Yeah. Um, but, uh, I had the opportunity to lead cases and stand up in court and say, you know, I'm Amanda Wait. I'm here on behalf of the US government for the Federal Trade Commission. And that is a really powerful thing to say, and it was a lot of fun.

Grant Freking: (05:17)
Yeah. Aside, I was, my next question is, was gonna be, um, walk me through like the poignant moments you remember from that, or things that you maybe carry with you to, to your current role from that job to, from that job that's, that clearly led an, uh, left an impact on you.

Amanda Wait: (05:32)
Yeah, I mean, I think going to the government, um, you know, we had, we had small teams, and so you were kind of expected to be a lawyer from day one. You know, you didn't have a lot of time to kind of shadow people and learn how to do things. You really had to learn on the fly. So one of the most, um, interesting moments, I think in my early career was about a year into my practice at the Federal Trade Commission, someone came to me and said, you know, we're, we're staffing up a new matter. There is an issue around natural monopolization theory, and we have an economic witness on the other side, and we need to take his deposition. You have a degree in economics, , don't you wanna be the expert , uh, witness to, you know, take the person who takes the, uh, right, right.

Amanda Wait: (06:18)
The economic experts witness. And, you know, taking a deposition is hard enough, but taking the deposition of someone who testifies in court professionally as their job and has been doing so for 20 years as a professional PhD economist was very intimidating. Um, but I just rolled up my sleeves and did it. And I think the, what the lesson that I've taken from that is you have to give people the opportunity to reach, and you have to give people the opportunity to prove that they can do it. You can't just give people the jobs that you know, that they can do. And so now that I'm more senior in my career and I'm working with junior people, you know, I'll, I'll take a hard look at what tasks are coming up, and I'll say, who have I worked on with these kinds of projects? And I won't let them do the same thing again. Mm-hmm . I'll make them do the next thing. Do the biggest thing

Grant Freking: (07:13)
Intentionally expose them to other areas to knowing that it'll help them further down the road or help your team and your company, I'm assuming too. Right.

Amanda Wait: (07:20)
And you have to kind of stand back and let them do it, you know, and even though you know how to do it more efficiently, or you might know the slightly better question to ask, you kinda have to let people figure it out and be there as a resource for them, but, you know, give them opportunities just like I did. And I had those opportunities when I was more junior.

Grant Freking: (07:39)
Yeah. That's a hard thing to do, I'm sure. Yeah. Uh, let's talk about developing expertise. Your work demands, as you've mentioned, legal depth, but also industry fluency. How did you go about building that kind of cross sector knowledge in your position?

Amanda Wait: (07:53)
Yeah. Well, let me take a step back and just say, in antitrust, we have to learn a lot about industries. So we are advising on the competitive playing field, which looks very different from industry to industry. I do a lot of work in the healthcare sector, for example. And the way that hospitals compete to be in network with insurers is very different than how, you know, your supermarket down the street competes to get customers walking in the door. You know, those are two very different industries. Um, I also do a lot in kind of manufacturing and manufacturing for inputs. So the customers there are not, you know, people like you and me, uh, buying engines for things. Uh, but they're usually, you know, automobile manufacturers or, um, recreational vehicle manufacturers or other big companies that are buying things as inputs into products that they're then making and selling to others.

Amanda Wait: (08:51)
And so, again, very different competitive dynamics. And so, you know, I work in all of those industries simultaneously, and when a client calls and wants to talk about something that's happening in their industry, I have to know what's going on. Not just how do you make this widget or how do you put together a network for health services? But, you know, are there any recent moves in this space? Are companies innovating? Are there new companies coming in? Did their biggest competitor just get a huge capital infusion? You have to stay on top of all of this stuff because the clients are expecting that, you know, their business. Yeah. So that's a bit of the background. To go to your immediate question, I think AI helps a lot with this. Um, and it's a tool that we didn't really have even a couple years ago where I have, uh, for example, we use copilot at my law firm, and I have a daily copilot prompt that runs every morning at 6:00 AM that summarizes all of the emails that come in from different news sources in my inbox and pops out a summary.

Amanda Wait: (10:04)
And I can go through those, it contains links to the underlying articles, and I can skim through and I have it set up so that I'm looking at, you know, manufacturing industry publications. I'm looking at healthcare industry publications, I'm looking at tech publications. I'm looking at general news sources, but I can skim through the headlines and really stay on top of what's happening in all of those industries so that when my clients call and say, oh, hey, did you see that so and so just got bought out by this other competitor of ours? I can say, yes, I did see that. You know, what does that mean for you? Mm-hmm .

Grant Freking: (10:40)
Yeah. You touched on leadership a little bit earlier, but I want to circle back to that. Um, what other ways do you tend to show up as a leader in your position? And how has that evolved for you over your career?

Amanda Wait: (10:52)
Oh, that's a great question. I think leadership means a couple different things, and I think it's helpful to think about it in different buckets. So there's, you know, the big kind of big picture strategy leaders, you know, the where is this business gonna be in five years, kind of questions or the how do we innovate to stay relevant in our industry kinds of questions. And, you know, leadership at that level requires, you know, kind of being able to see around corners, seeing what's coming down the pike, seeing what your competitors are doing. Um, you know, I'm working right now in my law firm to help develop out a five year strategic plan for our DC office. And so we're trying to think through, you know, what impact is AI having on our business? How many associates do we need? Do we need partners in different areas and things like that.

Amanda Wait: (11:45)
Um, but I also think leadership means the day to day stuff. And that's, I think, a little trickier because it's, you know, one thing to put together a strategic five-year plan and then go out and hire in specific areas and execute on that plan. But I think the leadership on a day-to-day level is things around office culture, um, particularly around return to office. Mm-hmm . Has been a big challenge, particularly in the DC area where, uh, post COVID, I, um, it's really, really hard to get people physically in the building. Everybody wants to work from home. A lot of people move further out. Commuting distances are hard, traffic is horrible, parking is hard. You know, there's all kinds of reasons and you can only throw so many pizza parties, you know, to get people in the door, right? Um, and so as a leader in the organization, you have to have those little interactions every day.

Amanda Wait: (12:37)
So for example, I, I walk the hall every morning at 10 o'clock not to take notes or keep score who's here, who's not here, but to make the people who are there feel valued and, you know, give them a little love that, you know, we care about them as people and you know, we care that they're in the building and we care that they're there. We wanna hear what's going on with them, and we wanna hear what's going on with their families. Um, and so I think that is another kind of soft skill form of leadership that when you're trying to hit those big picture goals of building out an office or building out an organization or developing in certain areas, having the trust of your team and the culture around it that happens through those daily interactions is critically important to be able to execute on the bigger stuff too.

Grant Freking: (13:24)
Yeah, those, I like that answer a lot. Those personal touches mixed with the strategic, um, vision. Where did you pick up on that? Is that something that this comes gradually with experience, or is there, are there specific mentors or leadership figures that you've had sort of modeled this behavior after?

Amanda Wait: (13:40)
You know, I think it was just because I saw how I wanted to be treated. Okay. You know, when I was more junior, I entered, uh, practicing law in the early two thousands where, um, after I left the Federal Trade Commission, I joined a law firm in, in 2007, where, you know, and this wasn't specific to that law firm, but the culture and law generally was a lot of face time and a lot of long hours. We didn't have the ability to work remotely for client confidentiality and security reasons. We couldn't access firm networks from our homes. Um, so that meant, I, I had a pillow and a sleeping bag under my o under my desk in my office, and I ordered takeout a lot, for, for, for office dinners and was in, in the office quite a bit. And, you know, at various organizations where I've been, over time, I've seen how office leadership and office management would, you know, interact with the people who were there kind of pulling the all-nighters or working really hard for, for clients.

Amanda Wait: (14:43)
And, you know, I saw, frankly, people with leadership titles who, you know, would swing by your office at seven o'clock at night and say, Hey, I'm going out to dinner with some clients, you know, have that thing on my desk in a couple hours, or have, have that thing on my desk for the morning. And then they were gone for the night. Then I saw the leaders who were like, Hey, I'm really sorry that you have to be here tonight. I have this client dinner that I have to do, but I'll be back in two hours and let me know how I can help. And those are very different messages that come across to junior folks and organizations. And so I think that I've always seen through my own experiences, you know, leadership as not just being the title or, you know, the person that has the role, but leadership is how you build the culture.

Grant Freking: (15:34)
Yeah. Inherent to leadership and, and also inherent to your position are the, uh, the ethical areas. How do you, um, navigate these ethical gray areas when the stakes are so high for you in your position? And I guess, what are the principles to, to that lead you to like the quote unquote right answer when it's, maybe it's not so obvious?

Amanda Wait: (15:52)
Yeah. I mean, for lawyers, we have a lot of guidance on what is and is not ethical. Mm. And, um, I will say the vast majority of lawyers, at least, that I have interacted with over the course of my career, take ethics incredibly seriously. Um, as part of my license, uh, for the Commonwealth of Virginia, I have to take ethics credits, um, continuing legal education every year, and I have to certify to the Virginia State Bar that I have done that, and that I have taken these courses, um, and that I'm staying on top of what the, the ethical rules are in the jurisdictions where I practice. Um, I think aside from the technical rules, um, at least for the lawyers that I work with and that I've interacted with, we all take ethics incredibly seriously because our life and our livelihood is on the line.

Amanda Wait: (16:43)
And it is just not worth it to take risks on your law license or your practice and your reputation. Um, you know, if you lose your law license in one jurisdiction, every other jurisdiction where you're license to practice will also pull your law license, and then you're out of a job and what do you do? You know, we've got mortgages to pay just like everybody else. Mm-hmm . So I, you know, I think it's something we take very seriously. Um, most law firms and other organizations have their own general counsels who are the lawyers for the entity, for the law firm or for the organization. And I have built great relationships with those folks. Over time, when there are gray areas, I will seek guidance internally. Um, there's also bar council for the state bars where people are practiced that can give, um, guidance on anonymous basis.

Amanda Wait: (17:35)
So there's a lot of guidance out there. Um, now that all said, clients do come to you and have a lot of questions, and your job as a lawyer is to assess the risk for your clients. We are not the decision makers, we're not the business people. We're not the ones that say, you know, do this. Don't, you know, here's what you're going to do. We just advise and they make decisions. And so our job as counselors and advisors is to, you know, sometimes ask the question, you know, well, how do you look in orange? You know, do you really ? Do you really wanna end up in jail because that's where this is gonna go. Um, if you go down this path, most of the work that I do is civil. So my, my clients, I've knock on wood, have never had a client go to jail, at least not for anything that I was advising on. Yeah. Um,

Grant Freking: (18:23)
Put that on your LinkedIn .

Amanda Wait: (18:25)
Yeah. Maybe that should be my tagline. Yeah. Amanda. Wait, lawyer has never sent a client to jail. . I don't think my firm would like that too much. Yeah, probably not. Um, but you know, we, we do have to sometimes be the bad guy in the room. Yeah. And clients are coming to me with big ideas and big ideas that are gonna transform their business that they have been thinking about for a long time. And so it's really hard sometimes to be the person who taps the brakes on that and says, you know, maybe this isn't the best idea. Maybe this will not put you in compliance with the laws that you need to be in compliance with. But that always creates an opportunity and it creates an opportunity to build your relationships with your clients. So going back to the question that you had earlier about staying on top of the client's business, sometimes I will go to clients and say, well, maybe you can't do it exactly this way, but here's what I saw another company doing. Would something like this work for you? Yeah. Because I think there's a way that you could do it like this instead of doing it like that and, you know, then you are more in compliance or here's your, here's your risk level. You know, this is gonna be higher risk, this will be lower risk, but you know, it's up to you what your risk tolerance is. And then as the outside lawyers, we just have to document the advice that we gave in case it goes, uh, sideways.

Grant Freking: (19:48)
Yeah. Instead of an outright no options. And giving them degrees of certainty, I guess.

Amanda Wait: (19:53)
Yeah. We try really hard not to be the department of No. Right.

Grant Freking: (19:56)
Yeah. As, as easy as that can be sometimes. Uh, going off that, uh, the tension and difficult conversations that I'm sure you experience with your clients, um, on a, probably almost a near daily basis is really interesting to me. How do you navigate those stormy waters? Um, does, like, do you have like walk in like, okay, this, this one's gonna be a tough one. Do I have, do you have like a checklist or coming in with like, make sure I do this, this, and this with this client? Um, how, how do you kind of navigate those situations?

Amanda Wait: (20:24)
So first I think it's important to kinda understand the personalities. So I'm often coming in at a pretty high level in an organization. So I'm either directly advising A CEO or a chief legal officer or, um, CFO, you know, kind of c-suite level, um, folks within a, within a client, or I'm coming in and advising the board, uh, because they're making a strategic business decision that requires that level of approval. And so I think just with any professional, um, presentation or anytime you're coming in to be an expert at that level, it's really important to understand the personalities and where people are coming from. And you don't have to come in cold. Um, you know, there are people in the organization who know the personalities involved. And so having a close relationship with the general counsel or the chief legal officer or you know, the CEO or the chairman of the board, or whoever, whoever's the closest contact, I think it's incredibly helpful and almost necessary to talk to them ahead of time and say, okay, tell me who's gonna be in the room, who's gonna like this decision that you're gonna make?

Amanda Wait: (21:34)
And who more importantly, who's not gonna like it and what's their objection gonna be? Um, so that I can help anticipate that. And then I think it's important to come into the difficult conversations and just, you know, state the elephant in the room. This is a hard choice. I know you are facing a hard choice. I have worked with clients who faced these same kinds of hard choices. Um, I don't mean to minimize that in any way, but here's how you can navigate that. Here's how you know, you can make this decision and take that consideration into account, even if it's something that's not directly an antitrust related concern. So lemme give you an example. Okay. I'm often working with clients who are considering large strategic mergers and acquisitions, usually in the multi hundreds of millions of dollar range. These are big choices. Most of my clients are, are public companies.

Amanda Wait: (22:27)
So these are, these are decisions that have SEC reporting obligations attached to them. Um, they're oftentimes decisions that are coming with job implications. So, you know, you merge two companies together. You don't necessarily need two CFOs or two CEOs, and you've got the people in the room whose jobs might be on the line as a result of this. And so it's very, um, a sensitive line to walk to say, you know, you have to do what's in the best interest of the company. That's, that's your job as an outside counsel, and that's the board's job as a fiduciary for the organization. But knowing that your decision might impact your friend who's the CEO is, is really tough. So I think just coming in and saying like, you know, we know this is tough. This is, uh, this is not gonna be an easy decision. But, you know, kind of having the sideline conversation saying like, look, if this deal goes through and you CEO are now looking for a new position, I have lots of clients that are looking for CEOs. Let me help you with that. Right. Um, so there's ways you can navigate that, you know, kind of strategically. Yeah.

Grant Freking: (23:35)
A delicate dance to be sure. Mm-hmm . Has there been a case you've worked on that really changed your perspective on markets or competition or any of the various areas that you've worked on?

Amanda Wait: (23:45)
So, in 22 years of being an antitrust lawyer, I've become a little insufferable around competition. 'cause I get the pleasure of working with clients in all different kinds of industries. And it impacts, um, just everyday life. I look around the world and I see things that I've had the opportunities to touch upon in my antitrust life. And, you know, it, it's just, um, it's fascinating and I, I absolutely love it. So, for example, I'm just here in this podcast room and there is a case of water sitting on the floor. I have worked on cases involving, um, supply chain for supermarkets and big box retailers. I know exactly how that case of water probably got here. , I've worked on, uh, cases involving retail food distribution. So maybe your, maybe your case of water came through a food distributor instead of through a supermarket. Yeah. I, I can tell you all about that.

Amanda Wait: (24:41)
I drive down the highway and I see my client's, uh, distribution trucks driving down the road. And if I'm not driving, if someone else is driving the car, I will literally take pictures of semi-trucks on the highway that belong to my client, and I will send them pictures and say, I saw one of your trucks today, . Um, uh, in terms of, uh, any particular cases that are interesting, I had an opportunity pretty soon after I left the Federal Trade Commission and went into private practice to represent Delta Airlines in their merger with Northwest Airlines in, in 2008. And that has changed how I travel, it has changed how I think about airlines. It has changed how I think about flight scheduling. It has changed, you know, even how, what I think about when I'm sitting in an air airport gate waiting to board a flight, um, I just learned so much about how airlines work, and it's such a fascinating industry. Um, I also could probably tell you any airport in the US based on, its three digit FAA code still, you know, 15 years later. So you can, you can test me out, but, um, my favorite airport code is Sioux City, which Sioux City's airport code is SUX.

Grant Freking: (26:04)
Okay. . Nice. I'm sensing a future podcast. Future podcast from you, Amanda Wade on airlines, .

Amanda Wait: (26:11)
Yeah. It's, it's a, it's really fascinating.

Grant Freking: (26:14)
Nice. All right. Let's, last couple of questions here before I let you get, get on a, a plane. Um, can you gimme some background on how you've been involved with the Kautz Uible Economics Institute, which is one of our center's, institutes here at Linder in a wonderful institute and, and why this institute means so much to you?

Amanda Wait: (26:30)
Sure. So, um, when I was an economic student back, uh, starting in 1997, uh, I had the opportunity to apply for a scholarship, which, um, the institute then was called the Hewitt Kautz Fund. And the scholarship really changed the whole course of my life. Um, I was able, and, you know, lucky, fortunate, honored to receive a two year financial scholarship as part of that, um, part of that fund. Mm. And graduated from undergrad with no student debt, which to me was incredibly important as I was thinking about law school. And, um, it enabled me to apply to law schools outside of the Cincinnati area. I ended up going to William and Mary in Virginia, and if I had had student debt from my undergraduate education, I don't think I would have been able to take on additional debt, you know, in law school and, and had the courage and kind of financial wherewithal to be able to move halfway across the country in a state where I had no relatives, no family, and just kind of start over there.

Amanda Wait: (27:37)
Um, so it was incredibly, um, incredibly financially supportive for me. And so I was thrilled, um, several years ago when I had the opportunity to join the board, uh, of that fund. So I've been very involved, um, probably for 14 years or so now, and just working with, uh, with Dan Kautz and Woody Uible and Debashis Pal, and seeing their vision for the economics department and really seeing philanthropy in action. You know, how much good we can do as an institute to support our students, to support our alumni, to support our professors and the department. Um, I think we've just done really great things. Uh, so maybe as an example, one of my, my personal projects within the Kouts BU Economics Institute, uh, started about 10 years ago where we founded what's now called the eConnect Initiative, which is, um, loosely organized, uh, group that provides mentoring and support to current economic students.

Amanda Wait: (28:42)
So for example, today here in about an hour or so, we're hosting a lunch for the economic students. We're having a couple other alumni come into town. We do this every spring and every fall. Mm-hmm . To talk about careers in economics, what you can do with an econ degree, how you can be ready for your internship, how you can explain why an econ degree is actually the best degree to get, uh, and can create more opportunities for you, especially if you pair it up with another degree within the College of Business. And it can just create opportunities that not having an econ degree, you know, won't necessarily get for you.

Grant Freking: (29:20)
Right. And you remain connected to not just the institute and here at Lindner, but also all of you see through your work with the foundation. You know, you, you mentioned some of the work that you also have done, guest lectures. Um, what overall motivates you to stay engaged, I guess, aside from like your, the, the personal experience that you have, um, but sort of expanding the, your, your view on it a little wider. What motivates you to stay engaged in that sense? And what do you hope students take away from your interactions with them?

Amanda Wait: (29:48)
Uh, well, well, first I love just coming on campus. Um, there's so much energy, it's so much excitement, and I just feel very energized every time I come on campus. The campus looks very different today than it did when I first stepped on foot here as a student in 1997. You know, main Street wasn't here. Yeah. This beautiful building that the Linner College of Businesses in wasn't here. Um, and I just love seeing the transformation of our wonderful university into the just world class research institution that we are today. So that itself is energizing. I love talking to students and, you know, hearing what they're doing. There's, there's so much that the Linner students are doing these days. They're running organizations, they're entrepreneurs. They're starting their own businesses. I mean, they're so far ahead of where I was when I was a student here. It's, it's just great to see.

Amanda Wait: (30:41)
Um, and then I think you asked about, you know, inspiring students. I'll tell you a story. When, when I first, uh, became a Hewitt Kouts fellow and received the scholarship, they did a, a kind of meet and greet, uh, awards dinner. This was back in the old alumni center, which, um, is actually physically in the same space that the Lyner College of Businesses today. And I remember, this is gonna sound a little silly, but, um, you know, it was like the fanciest thing that I had ever been to in my life. There was a harpist I remember very vividly. Okay. There was this, a harpist from CCM maybe to

Grant Freking: (31:19)
Bring that harpist back.

Amanda Wait: (31:21)
I, I've talked to Dan Kautz about this. Okay. , um, good. But I, I remember walking in and there was a harpist and, and everybody was just dressed so nicely, and it was just a fancy event. And I had the opportunity to meet Jim Kautz, uh, who was the original founder of the Hewitt Kouts Fund, which he named in honor of one of his professors. And Jim for, for those who don't know, um, he was a principal at Goldman Sachs. And I remember thinking, and I, I've told Dan his son this story too, that he had the nicest suit that I had ever seen in my life. . And, and you know, he just must be a really important person. But my takeaway from that is, isn't it great that somebody who has a big job and he works in New York and works for Goldman Sachs, that I had to actually look up, I didn't know what it was back then, uh, would spend his time to come here and meet somebody like me. And it gave me the opportunity and kind of encouraged me to think big. And I, I don't remember exactly what we talked about during that conversation, but I remember coming away from the conversation thinking, wow, I could do a lot with my life. I could do anything. And I would love to be able to be that kind of inspiration for students here too. Yeah.

Grant Freking: (32:43)
It's, you never know the impact you can have just with like one small conversation that they can leave you with. I know that's happened for me in my own separate journey with my mentors. And it's great that you feel like you have that ability to maybe possibly be the influence for, for our students too.

Amanda Wait: (32:58)
Yeah. And you know, it wasn't that I came away from the conversation with, with him, you know, wanting to be an investment banker in New York. Sure. That that wasn't what I wanted. But you know, just the fact that we had alumni of our department who were willing to kind of show you what you could do was, um, something that has, that has stuck with me for now almost 30 years. Right.

Grant Freking: (33:20)
Well, Amanda, that's all I have for you today. I appreciate you being here. Thank you very much.

Amanda Wait: (33:23)
Thank you. It was my pleasure.

Grant Freking: (33:25)
Thank you for listening to this episode of Bearcats Mean Business. If today's episode sparked a new idea, challenged your thinking or helped you see your path a little more clearly, be sure to subscribe, leave a review and share the episode with someone in your network. Thanks for being part of the conversation. And remember, real world success begins here at Lindner.

Grant Freking: (00:00)
What does real world success in business actually look like? Welcome the Bearcats Mean Business, the official podcast of the University of Cincinnati's Carl H. Lindner College of Business, where inspiring career stories, honest lessons, and fresh business perspectives from the people building impact in the real world. Come together, tune in for inspiration, practical business insights, and forward-looking thought leadership on how ambition turns into action. And now for today's episode,

Marianne Lewis: (00:31)
Doug Conant, it's, it's such a pleasure to have you here at Lindner. I appreciate you on many levels, and now today we, I'm thrilled to be able to share some of your learnings and inspiration with others. So thank you again for being here.

Doug Conant: (00:44)
Oh, I feel blessed to be here on a beautiful day in the spring. Beautiful day. Can't beat it,

Marianne Lewis: (00:49)
Especially on a campus. Yeah. It just all comes alive. It's so vibrant. Um, you know, I, I'd love to, to dive in with, into some of your CEO and Chairman lessons because you've, you've certainly had quite a few. I think the challenge is to winnow it down, and I'd love you to share, you know, one or more of your most vital or likely toughest leadership decisions. Um, because as you and I have talked about before, from balancing responsibilities to shareholders versus employees or money and mission, and in your turnarounds of Nabisco Campbell Soup as Avon chairman, uh, give, give us something that gives us a sense of, you know, what is a really tough leadership decision and how do you work through it

Doug Conant: (01:32)
In 25 words or less. There you go. Be a piece of cake easy. Uh, no, uh, you know, it's funny. Things become more clear as you start to step away from fighting through the day to day. And it's funny because I'm very reflective these days. Mm-hmm . On March 15th of this year, I celebrated my golden anniversary of 50 years as a corporate leader. Uh, on March 15th, 1976, I started my career in brand management at General Mills, right. After getting my MBA from the Kellogg School. It wasn't even called the Kellogg School, then. It was the Graduate School of Management Science at Northwestern. And, uh, and so I've had 50 years of, 52 weeks a year of navigating the choppy seas of the corporate world. Mm-hmm . Uh, 52 years worth of challenges every day and having, what are we gonna do on Monday conversations? And I've had the privilege of working with now 52 people who have worked for me, who have gone on to be CEOs.

Doug Conant: (02:40)
So that's extraordinary. You know, the experience, uh, has been, it's been an amazing ride considering I started at, out at the very bottom. I've had 28 bosses in my career. I've been, and they had 28 bosses. So basically I had 56 bosses and, uh, I had about 20 roles in my first 25 years. And, and two roles, basically my last two or three, my last 25 mm-hmm . But the lessons I'm gonna share with you today, yeah. They applied to when I started, when I was in the middle of the journey and when I ended the journey. So these will come from a former chairman, CEO, but there are life lessons that apply to every step along the way. And the f there, there are are two of them. Uh, one is that it's all about people. Mm-hmm . You have to bring a people first mentality to the work.

Doug Conant: (03:48)
Uh, there's a, there's a quote, which I won't get right, from a Rabbi Hillel the elder, uh, before Christ, uh, who basically said, uh, uh, treat others as you would like to be treated. And all the rest is just rhetoric, , everything. El And, and he's, and he said that about the Torah. Everything else in the Torah is just rhetoric. You treat people properly and okay. And everything else is just rhetoric. And I found over 50 years in all of my roles with all of my bosses, that it's true in the corporate world, and it's true in life, uh, in the fullness of time. If you wanna have enduring impact with people, uh, you need to treat them as you would wanna be treated. You need to honor them and respect them. You can win in the short term if you wanna be a bully. We've seen mm-hmm .

Doug Conant: (04:57)
Evidence of that in, in the political world these days. But there's no evidence in all of human history that that is a sustainable proposition. And there's su certainly no evidence in the corporate world. My 50 years is 20% of the, his in the, in the corporate world is 20% of the history of the country. It's about 50% of the history of the corporate world as we migrated from a, an agrarian society mm-hmm . To an industrial society. And through it all, I think people first is the one thing that resonates with me, the lesson I've learned, and it's never let me down. Not as an assistant product manager, a product manager, a marketing director, a vice president in sales, in strategy, in marketing, a general manager. It's never let me down. So that's the first piece. The second piece, and it's pretty straightforward, is that leading is hard.

Doug Conant: (06:05)
And, uh, it's not just one thing. But if I had to boil it down to one thing in terms of how you lead, and it builds off this people first mentality, it's that you have to be tough-minded on standards and kindhearted with people, not one or the other. Both. You have to bring an abundance mentality to the work. Because look, the reality is if you're not getting the job done as expected, you won't have the job very long. And so as a CEO, you have maybe three years the first year it's the other guy's fault. The second year it's our fault. We're learning the third year. You own it. And so you've gotta be performing Yeah. In a way that promises to your bosses and whoever you're reporting to your shareholders, the the promises that it's gonna be better tomorrow than it is today. And then you gotta demonstrate that time and again.

Doug Conant: (07:00)
Mm-hmm . And so you've gotta be very performance oriented. But I've also learned that going back to the people first mentality, if you don't put people first there, when you're not in the room, they won't necessarily champion the agenda that you've created with them. And so they have to champion it because they want it. And the way they do that is, uh, the way you bring them into the effort in a fulsome way is by being kind. You know, uh, I have a favorite saying, uh, Conan O'Brien, who just hosted the award ceremony. Uh, he has a great saying that I, I wrote a piece about, about 10 years ago, and his saying is, work hard, be kind, and amazing things will happen. And you know what, in my career, I've worked hard. I've been kind all along the way, I've been tough-minded on standards of performance and amazing things have happened, not just for me, but for all the people that have been, been on the journey with not perfect, but it's, it's largely, it's worked nicely. Yeah.

Marianne Lewis: (08:04)
Oh, I, I mean, you and I have talked about that one before. You know, I, I studied paradox and competing demands, and I remember a conversation with you probably a year ago where I talked about one of the challenges I'm seeing increasingly with executives and rising leaders is between tough and kind. And you gave me the tough-minded, kind-hearted and, and ex examples of that. And I want you to know it stuck with me deeply. I think it's a very powerful lesson. You know, another, not, maybe not so much a lesson, but kind of a motto that I've heard you say that I'd love you to talk a little bit more about, is something I've seen from the Conant leadership website to other places, is your line to win in the marketplace, you must first win in the workplace. I, I'd love to hear how and when did you come to this conclusion, and if there's more that we should understand about that motto.

Doug Conant: (08:54)
Well, we can unpack it a little bit. Yeah. That's, but it grows out of my belief and my experience and my study. It's not just my experience. I'm talking about, I've been a student of leadership for 50 years too. You really have, and I've taught it. I was chair of the Kellogg Executive Leadership Institute for five years. I'm, so, I'm deeply steeped in this leadership conversation, both as a practitioner and as as a student. Uh, in my experience, it grows out of, and all the studies indicate this, that you have to, if you want people to champion your agenda, they have to genuinely believe that you're appreciating their agenda. Mm-hmm . It just won't work any other way. So if you're not paying attention to their agenda, you can't count on them as an enterprise to be champion yours. So you gotta put first things first.

Doug Conant: (09:47)
And you can't, you just can't win. I just have seen no, no evidence that you can win in the marketplace in an enduring way unless you've got the enterprise with you and working the same process that you are. Uh, and as long as I found that, as long as I focused on creating the right environment for my team, and I challenged them to perform at a certain level, we worked on that, and then I supported them, uh, we did well mm-hmm . And the only times where when I was shortsighted and had a deal with an emergency and didn't make the best decision, we struggled. And I put that more on me than I do on them, because if I had created the right conditions for it, they would've found a way through. Mm-hmm . But I had to deal with something that demanded an expedient reaction.

Doug Conant: (10:41)
I didn't manage it probably as well as I could have. And, uh, so I think that's the key. You gotta win in the market, in the workplace before you can ever expect to win in the marketplace. Absolutely. I think it's even more true now than when I was starting, because now, uh, you're more dependent on those frontline workers to do the job because, uh, in the last two decades, the organization hierarchies have collapsed, and managers are now managing three times as many people. Right. And all, also, the jobs have changed. Mm-hmm . It used to be, when I started, if I didn't know what to do, I would go ask my boss, how do I do this? They can't go ask their boss now. They get sent to the help desk or ask a coworker, you know, well, then what are you doing, boss? Uh, and so if you want them to be more autonomous, which they have to be mm-hmm .

Doug Conant: (11:36)
You really much more self-managed, you, you, you really better be creating a culture where they think you've got their back. They shouldn't only think it, they should know it. Right. And there should be evidence of it. So it's even more important now than it was before, because I, even if I wanted to do your job, I couldn't do it for you. Mm-hmm . So I'm counting on you. And if I'm that dependent on you, I, I need to recognize that and recognize that I need to be helpful to you if you are to be fully helpful to the enterprise. Yeah.

Marianne Lewis: (12:11)
I, I, I think that's powerful learning. Um, you, you and I are, are both, uh, disciples in varied ways of, uh, Warren Bennis. And one of my favorite, and I have a lot of favorites I suppose, but of, of his insights is, is about the power of crucible moments that you, you really find yourself particularly as a leader, um, being honed in the hardest times. And one that has stuck out in conversations I've had with you. You certainly write about it in, in your book. Um, the blueprint is that you're quite pub public about having been fired from a director level role early in your career. I, I'd love you to share a little bit about what you learned from that very clear crucible moment.

Doug Conant: (12:55)
Well, uh, you're gonna make me relive that again, . Um, I, I, once I wrote about it, it seems to come up a lot. And when it happened, when I lost my job back in the 19, early 1980s, and, uh, I had moved to Boston from my home from where I had started my career in Minneapolis, still working for General Mills, uh, the first company I worked for. And, uh, they, uh, and I was in the Parker Brothers toy and game company, which was a blast. I was director of marketing for toys and games. Uh, but they went through some difficult times. That industry tends to grow and shrink based on the latest hit. And we were drifting into the electronic game age out of the traditional board game age. So we were scrambling to make it all work. Ultimately, they downsized and they decided they didn't need me.

Doug Conant: (13:55)
And, uh, they let me go. Uh, I went into work one day. Uh, the assistant said, uh, so and so would like to see you in his office on the executive floor. I went up to the executive floor. He couldn't look at me. He said, Doug, your position's been eliminated. You need to be out of here by noon. Ouch. And so and so will escort you down. And there wasn't even a, I've worked for the company for 10 years. It wasn't even a hatch. It was so awkward for him. Oh, I mean, I, I I understand that. I've had to let people go too. Yeah. Uh, but you need, there's a better way. Mm-hmm . But I, under, I understood it and I went home, but I was, uh, furious. And, uh, I went home to my wife, the two, my our two small children and my one very large mortgage feeling every bit the victim there.

Doug Conant: (14:47)
And I ended up working with an outplacement counselor who really helped me sort through how to deal with a crucible moment. And that was a crucible moment. I was outta work for nearly a year. Uh, uh, and, uh, uh, basically he basically said, you know, Doug, if you're really stuck, the way to get out of this is to go in and to be reflective on the things, what matters most to you. You know, there's this quote by, uh, a former beatnik, uh, Ambrose Red Moon who passed away in 1996. And he, he basically talked about courage as, uh, it's, uh, it's easy to, in order to manifest courage, it's not, it's the, in order to manifest courage, it's not about, uh, there has to be something more important that motivates you. And so he was basically saying, Doug, what's important to you? Yeah. You know, you're afraid you're outta work what's important and what matters most to you, which goes back to some Stephen Covey language that you and I've talked about in the past.

Doug Conant: (16:16)
And Warren Bennett's language. And so what I learned in that process was I had to get anchored on what mattered most to me. 'cause I wasn't showing much courage. I was on my heels. I was worried about supporting my family. I like anybody mm-hmm . And, but I wasn't coming across, and I'm an introvert. I wasn't coming across as somebody, you just wanna jump through hoops to hire. Right. And, uh, I was sort of shell-shocked. And, and he's, so, he, he basically made me hand write my life story on 50 pages, both sides. And he wanted handwritten. He thought there was more to it than that. And actually, there was, uh, and I said, I don't have time to write all this stuff. I gotta get a job. He said, on the other hand, this is the perfect time. 'cause you don't have a job. Let's do the work.

Doug Conant: (17:09)
I want it in two weeks. So I spent two weeks writing basically my life story. And we talked about it afterwards. He said, well, what did you learn? I, I said, well, I come from an amazing family history. Uh, my forefathers pioneered this country. They dealt with a lot more challenging things than I have in front of me. And they found their way through. I come from pretty hardy stock. I need to lift my game. I need to be more intentional about what I'm doing. I need to take charge of this thing. And so I did, and I started acting with purpose. I started acting more intentionally. Uh, I started to manifest the courage of my convictions, which was a big deal because I wasn't showing courage before. But that was because I didn't know my convictions. Mm-hmm . I , it's hard to show the courage of your convictions if you don't know what your convictions are. Yeah. And so I, I learned from that experience that I needed to bring courage to the work. And I couldn't be courageous until I was incredibly well anchored in who I was and what I wanted to do, knowing that it might change mm-hmm . But at least I needed to be really well grounded. And, uh, and that was the big lesson learned there. And I think that's true for all of us today. I mean, gosh, uh, it's only gotten more chaotic

Marianne Lewis: (18:35)
For

Doug Conant: (18:35)
Sure in the workplace and in the, in the country, in the culture. And the more things swirl around you, the more well anchored you need to be in order to deal with it all. That's right. And the one thing you can't do is succumb to that. You've got, in order to get out of this, you gotta go in mm-hmm

Marianne Lewis: (18:55)
. Well, and, and you know, I I, I wanna stress that you and I've talked as well, that you, your book where you really write more about this power of reflection and how to put it into practice. Your book called The Blueprint, um, has some wonderful methods of reflection. And I, I took it seriously myself and, and used your approach. And over, I guess it was a four day period, when was it, Doug? A couple years ago. Yeah. When my family was away, and I just had quiet for four days. And it is powerful to really go in, in that way. And, and I know it might, it's, you make me laugh when you say, you know, oh, you're gonna make me relive that horrible experience again, being fired. But I also think it's, it's incredibly important, especially when we have opportunities to talk when I have, and you have opportunities to talk to rising leaders or students as they're starting. They have to understand that you were them. Yeah. Once upon a time, you don't just come out.

Doug Conant: (19:53)
Oh, they're far ahead of where I was. . I mean, I was pretty pathetic for a whole host of reasons. But, uh, you know, I have learned that if you, if you get anchored on, you know, Stephen Covey used to say, Doug, you just gotta re you gotta remember, you gotta keep the main thing the main thing. Yeah. And he would say, what's your main thing? Yeah. And, uh, sounds so trite, but it wasn't.

Marianne Lewis: (20:19)
Oh, it's so hard to get, boil it down to

Doug Conant: (20:21)
It. You know, we have these life experiences that are teaching us what the main thing is. But I, in my case, I was just putting all those in the parking lot, and I was moving on with my life, and I wasn't really learning from them. I was just dealing with the new boss, the new situation, trying to react and navigate. And what I learned is the main thing was in my parking lot. I just needed to go in there and explore it, just like you needed to do for those four days. We did. And it's amazing because you, we know what impactful leadership looks like. We've experienced it with people. Mm-hmm . Our parents, our grandparents, our aunt, uncle, teacher, professor. Very rarely a boss. Sadly. Sadly. And, uh, and so we know what good leadership looks like. We just need to channel that experience into the way we show up for people in a way that's aligned with the person We wanna be the best version of ourselves. Yeah.

Marianne Lewis: (21:19)
I, I I, I, I could not agree more, you know, one of, one of the practices, I wanna drive, dive into something quite specific, but it, it's such a good example of what you're talking about, really putting it into action, um, revolves around really the power of gratitude because you, you became well known during your period at Campbell's, which was quite a turnaround for writing over 30,000 thank you notes. Um, I have a stack of thank you notes on my desk right now at the moment. And when I look every time I have the opportunity to write them, I think of you in that moment. Why did this recognition, these thank yous like this, become so important to you? And how has that practice developed?

Doug Conant: (22:01)
Well, this is all connected. Yeah. It is.

Marianne Lewis: (22:04)
If you connect, their themes are quite clear.

Doug Conant: (22:06)
Keep people first winning in the workplace. If you wanna win in the marketplace in an enduring way, and, and having an abundance mentality that talks about being tough-minded on standards and kindhearted with people. Uh, what I have found in 50 years of doing this stuff is that organizations, I don't care if they're academic, uh, non-profit government or commercial enterprises, organizations get really good at critical thinking. Mm-hmm . We find what's wrong, and then we commit to fixing all the broken parts. And that becomes, uh, the mindset of the enterprise. If you're not careful, we look for what's wrong. I can find a busted number on a spreadsheet, forget the fact that 87 numbers look right. I'll find the broken one and say, what are we doing with this one? And, uh, and I've discovered that every organization I've been part of, I've been at Nabisco and Campbell, they were two of the most broken organizations in the, in the food industry space in, in the last century of the large food companies. And, uh, for different reasons, but even then, eight outta 10 things were being done. Right. But nobody was talking about 'em. And even Gallup, Gallup survey, they do the, they're the preeminent, uh, employee engagement survey people. Mm-hmm .

Doug Conant: (23:37)
Headquartered in Washington dc They have their famous Q 12 survey and, uh, of the 12 questions that really give good indication of, uh, uh, of, uh, an employee who's fully engaged in the work. Okay. They boiled it down from hundreds of questions, thousands to hundreds to 12. One of the 12 questions is, I've received praise from my boss once this week. Just once, not a million times. Right. And all these people are doing at least one thing. Right. I guarantee it. And, uh, and I learned that after I started doing this, but I had this situation where we were gonna have to make some massive changes to the enterprise. And I realized, go back to Stephen Covey. His model helps explain this, that if you're gonna make, inevitably you have to make tough choices, but you, his model of the emotional bank account for an organization is mission critical here.

Doug Conant: (24:40)
Uh, you have to have so much equity with the, with the population that if you make a withdrawal and you make a tough decision, you're still in the black. Most organizations that are under pressure go way in the red, and then they try and rebuild it. Witness what's happening with the federal government employees right now. Mm-hmm . We're so far in the red. Yeah. It's gonna take decades to rebuild that infrastructure in a, in a, in a way that will serve the American people. That's another conversation. But I realize, well, what can I do? You know, because part of this is, you have, you can talk about this all you want, but you sort of have to live into it. You have to pull a Gandhi, you have to be the change you wanna see in the world. And I realized, well, I'm commuting two and a half hours to work from my home in New Jersey, and I got a two and a half hour drive home.

Doug Conant: (25:32)
I have somebody that drives me, thank God. But, uh, uh, on the way home, my assistant would pull all the information that had gone on in the company off our one portal. I'm old. So this was, we had one portal, and it all got printed out for me. I didn't, you know, and, uh, and I would read it all the way home, and I would pull things out of all the successes. I was overwhelmed at how much good stuff was going on. I knew all the bad stuff. And I, I, I pulled out 20 or 30 of these, and then on the way into work the next day, I would hand write thank you notes to 10 to 20, sometimes 30 people. Uh, and, uh, just saying thanks for the good work. I was very careful to reinforce the standards. Thanks for hitting your target.

Doug Conant: (26:23)
Mm-hmm . On time ahead of above budget, or thanks for, uh, helping us launch this program, uh, with this customer in a way that helps us put our best foot forward. It was all very focused on supporting the strategy and celebrating their contribution. And I would do 10 to 20 a day. And then when I retired, this is when this started to become known, not until I retired in 2010, 2011, uh, Forbes or Fortune, I don't know, which was interviewing me. And they said, we hear you write a lot of notes. And I said, I do. I 10 to 20 a day every day, six days a week for over a decade. And they said, well, how many is that? I don't know. And so we got out my desk calculator, my calculator in my drawer, and we did the math. And the math was that I had written at least 30,000 notes to, uh, to our, to our employees.

Doug Conant: (27:25)
I'd written other notes to, it wasn't, this is all about the entire value creation process. So I'd written notes to customers, I'd written out to suppliers mm-hmm . Consumers. I, I wrote a lot of notes, but I was in the car a lot so I could do it. And, uh, I got good at ri handwriting in the car. It's a bumpy ride sometimes . But I was very, I'm picturing you in the vaccine. I was very, I was very good at it as, but, and, uh, we figured out I'd written 30,000 notes, and we, we only had 25,000 employees. So everywhere in the world, people had a handwritten note for me, posted in their cubicle saying, thanks for the good work. Uh, you, you hit the target. You supported the strategy, and you're helping us move our company forward. And so, uh, and we were in, that's beautiful.

Doug Conant: (28:17)
We were in 38 countries. We were marketed on 125 countries. Wherever you would go, even an accounting center or a plant, they would have all these notes posted on the bulletin board. And it, what became interesting was, and this is why you have to model the behavior. All my, the people that worked directly for me started coming to me. All of our people are getting notes from you. Are you expecting us to write notes? And I said, no, I really didn't think that, but I didn't think this fully through. I do think we have to show up for them and celebrate what's working, but it has to be authentic. Going back to the Warren Venice Yeah. Absolutely. Importance. He placed on being authentic. I said, you need to find a way to authentically, in a way that works for you. Celebrate what's working while we're tearing apart what's not working.

Doug Conant: (29:07)
Right. Because we gotta tear apart what's not what, but 80% of this is working, and we gotta keep that going. And so all of a sudden, uh, some people who really didn't wanna write notes were wandering around. They managed by wandering around talking, they were intercepting people. And they became known for managing by wandering around some others who didn't wanna wander around, started having special time in their staff meetings and in their group meetings to celebrate contributions of significance. Uhhuh, they all found different ways, their way to do it. Mm-hmm . But I gotta believe if I hadn't shown up that way and hadn't started, these notes weren't popping up everywhere, it, it wouldn't have happened. Mm-hmm. I don't see any, in fact, I don't know of any other company that's a Fortune 500 company that was going that deep on the gratitude piece. And it worked. People, we, they were with us. Yeah.

Marianne Lewis: (30:05)
And you were doing hard things at the time,

Doug Conant: (30:07)
So, oh, well, you were building as, as we've talked before, I'm pretty sure we had to let go in the first three years. We let go 300 of our 350 top leaders, 300 out of 3 56 outta seven. Oh my goodness. Uh, we gave them three years to get it right. We said, here's what we wanna do, and here's how we're gonna do it. And we're gonna, we're gonna lead by honoring and respecting our workforce, and we're gonna audit this every year with Gallup survey. Mm-hmm . And the first year, I'm not even gonna look at the results. That's gonna be your baseline. The next two years we're gonna be looking at it, and you gotta be making progress at getting the employees engaged in the work mm-hmm . And, uh, and earning their respect. And if this isn't what you wanna do, you should choose to go somewhere else.

Doug Conant: (30:58)
And so, probably of the 300 we that left, probably 150 to 200 left on their own. Okay. Over the three years mm-hmm . But we let go a hundred to 150. Uh, we said, if we can find you a, a role where you're not a manager, but you're a individual contributor, that would be great. We'll try and find you a home and we'll help you find another job. But we gotta get this right. Going back to an earlier conversation that we just had, I had three years, my perspective mm-hmm . By year three, we had to be hitting stride. And that means you gotta start acting in year one. Yeah. But

Marianne Lewis: (31:36)
I love that you had that time horizon.

Doug Conant: (31:39)
Yeah. And so they had time to process it. Absolutely. Most of them didn't think I meant it, and most of them didn't think that I would last that long. So, uh, but ultimately, we promoted 150 people who had the eye of the tiger inside mm-hmm . And we had kept 50. So we ended up having to hire about 150 from outside, uh, all over the god's Green Earth. The, we were, we started recruiting the, the Young Turks, the people from the best consumer products companies who were stifled. They were stuck in bureaucracy. And they, they were ready to do more, but they couldn't break. They had to wait five years. Mm-hmm . And, uh, I was one of those at one point in time. And, uh, we found, you know, we got the right talent. That's right. And talent is all about character, competence and chemistry, your ability to work with teams. Uh, if we found the right people, we could change the world. And we did.

Marianne Lewis: (32:41)
You really did. Mm-hmm . It's remarkable. Um, Doug, let's, let's talk a little bit about, uh, the way you and I have been working together. I mean, we came to know each other through the Warren Benice Leadership Institute. You're, you're not an alum. Um, I don't think you've spent a lot of time in Cincinnati where you've probably spent some, but could you talk a little bit about what drew you to partner with the Warren Ben Leadership Institute? And, because I think it gives us a little bit more into, to your own values, um, but also your relationship with Warren.

Doug Conant: (33:12)
Yeah. Uh, there are two people that had a profound influence on my leader. Oh. There were a lot of people, but two people who were probably the top two that had a profound influence on my leadership life. And they were two men. There weren't really women role models then in the corporate world, certainly, and, uh, are on the fringe of the corporate world, even in academics, men, not too much talking about, I mean, women talking about leadership to, to men. Uh, so I was drawn to two people and, uh, Stephen Covey and Warren Benni. Mm-hmm .

Marianne Lewis: (33:54)
Impressive both.

Doug Conant: (33:55)
Yeah. They were to me. And they still, to me, I, and I'm gonna talk briefly about Steven, but I'll get to Warren very quickly. Uh, I was, uh, actually still working at Parker Brothers. This is eighties. Uh, and my wife and I were on a tr taking a trip after the birth of our second son. We, he was probably two. We hadn't been away, just the two of us forever. And we were going to actually down to the world Monopoly Championships at the Breakers Hotel. I was still in charge of marketing. And, uh, and I bought a book. I would always buy a hardcover book at the airport and read it on my trip. That was something I did. Now you just have a Kindle or whatever, . But, uh, and I bought this book, and we were sitting in first class, which was like a real tree, and they were serving mimosas or whatever, uh, bloody Mary's.

Doug Conant: (34:55)
And my, my wife had one. And I, she said, well, aren't you gonna get one? I said, no, this book looks interesting. I'm gonna read it. I started reading it. I read it all the way down there. I totally ignored her. And, uh, maybe not totally, but I was not fully present with her. And this is our big time apart, uh, away. But I was so absorbed by this book. And then I, we got to the Breakers hotel, they took us up to our room, they opened the doors. It was facing the ocean, the waves crashing on the rocks, and it was fantastic. And, uh, we weren't used to this kind of treatment. This was like a second honeymoon, I guess. And, uh, and I sat down and, and in the living area, and started trying to finish my chapter before I did anything else.

Doug Conant: (35:48)
And she said, what is wrong with you, ? You know, uh, this is our first time. What's going on? And I said, I can't help, but this guy is brilliant. And she said, well, why do you think he's so brilliant? I said, because he thinks just like I do, . And what Stephen Covey had done, and what Warren did for me was they gave words to what I thought and how I felt. Mm-hmm . They helped me find what Bill George would call True North. Uh, they were talking my language, uh, was it that movie with Renee Zeiger, uh, and Tom Cruise, he's like an agent. Uh, and anyway, at one point he comes to win her heart again. And she says, you had me at Hello. And, uh, and Steven and Warren had me that way. Nobody else did. Nobody else like that. And then, so I was a mentee of Stevens for years.

Doug Conant: (36:49)
Steven m Mr. His son is one of my good friends. Uh, uh, his daughter who finished his last book, Cynthia, is the whole family's a good friend. They're good friends. But then I was getting into writing, uh, uh, I was still a CEO. And, uh, I, I was friends with Bill George, and he recommended I talk to Warren about, I said, I have a book in mind. I wanna get it published. And he said, you oughta reach out to Warren mm-hmm . And so I reached out to Warren. He was living in Santa Santa Monica at the time. I said, I'd, you know, I'd like to meet you. And man, we just hit it off. I, I flew out to Santa Monica. Uh, there was a hotel where we would have breakfast called the Viceroy Hotel, and we would just sit and talk. And he always had a graduate assistant with him, because at this stage, he was older.

Doug Conant: (37:44)
He needed a driver. So I only knew him the last maybe eight years of his life. But I felt just same way I felt about Steven. I felt like he was a kindred spirit. Mm-hmm . And he had seen so much more than I had. I could learn a lot from him. And, uh, so, uh, we became friends. I ended when he passed, I ended up writing a little bit about him that got pretty good traction in social media. And, uh, and my first book was published under his group in his portfolio books with, uh, with the Wiley Publishing Company. And, uh, he wrote a little forward to it. Uh, and we stayed good friends until the very end. Uh, and what was fun for me is I had read all his material before I met him. Uh, I, I, I'm a voracious student of leadership, and I had read, uh, you know, some of the mm-hmm.

Doug Conant: (38:48)
I had read virtually all of his work mm-hmm . And, and, and the, and the one that I liked the best, because I read it at the right time. It's not the one anybody talks about, which one. But I was at Nabisco at the time, dealing with KKR in a, in a leverage buyout situation. And the book he wrote that really hit me hardest was a book titled Leading ca Leading People's, like, herding cats. And I was herding a lot of cats, and I didn't have any idea how I was gonna get through this. And he got it. And so that was the one book that I, I, I remember them having the greatest impact on me, although I've read all of 'em, and I've done his workbook. And, uh, and this was before I met him. So by the time I met him, I was sort of starstruck.

Doug Conant: (39:39)
Mm-hmm . But then we just became good friends. That's so nice. And, uh, uh, uh, you know, it's a just a sh like a lot of things. It's a shame we couldn't have had more time together. It was, uh, I think we both appreciated, and I love working with you and getting to know his daughter, Kate Venni mm-hmm . I see so much of him in her. And, uh, so that's what drew me to the Warren Venice Leadership Institute. Uh, I think it's vital, because I think the answer is we need more people like Warren mm-hmm . And, uh, in today's world, as the world gets more stress, you know, we know all the research says it's a, what do they call it now? A Bonnie world? Bonnie, it, it used to be a VUCA world. Warren. Warren creates, in 1986, Warren and Bur Nani created the VUCA concept.

Doug Conant: (40:36)
Mm-hmm . Foal, uncertain, complex, ambiguous. Mm-hmm . That's Bonnie. But every generation seems to need a new word, so they can, you know, well, we have our own word. Sure. We do. And the current word that is, is Bonnie BANI, brittle, anxious, non-linear, incomprehensible. Ooh, I have not heard that. And, uh, it must be true. It's in Google , and, uh, no, it, and it, when you study it, it actually makes sense. But all the research says of those four, brittle, anxious, non-linear, incomprehensible, the thing that's most pronounced now is anxiety. Uhhuh . People are so anxious with the world outside, they're getting paralyzed. And, uh, this anxiety is being perpetrated in a way that is not focused on winning in the workplace. Mm-hmm . It's not focused on being kindhearted. And as that gets into short supply, I think the law of economics says, as it gets into short supply, it's gonna be more in demand, more valuable mm-hmm . And it's gonna become more valuable. And, you know, absolutely. My friends think I'm crazy, but I think we're, if you wanna skate to where the puck's going, skate to a place that's talking kind hearted. Mm-hmm . Tough on standards have to be Yeah.

Marianne Lewis: (41:57)
Both. No, it's such a beautiful paradox. Yes.

Doug Conant: (41:59)
Both. But you, you, but you skate to where the puck's going, and it's going to be turning the corner. It already is. I think so towards kind hearted mm-hmm . And so that, that's where Warren and I sort of connected and it became personal. And one last thing, I I obviously, I can talk forever about this stuff, but the other thing I've learned is the more personal you make it, the more well anchored you become. Like, I knew Warren. Right. I knew what he meant and where he was coming from, because I talked to him about it. I can't do that with people over Zoom. Mm-hmm. I couldn't be leading teams over Zoom the same connection. Now, I might have to, I might have to. Right. But I would have to find a hybrid model. And I think everybody will to make it, if you wanna differentiate yourself, make it more personal, find a way to get to know people at a deeper level. Yeah. And the more intentional you are about that, whether it's writing, in my case, writing thank you notes, or, which was good in my era Yeah. Or whatever you choose to do, it's finding a way to make it more personal. And as I learned from Warren, the more I time I spent with him, the more personal it became, and the more well grounded I became. Mm-hmm.

Marianne Lewis: (43:21)
Mm-hmm .

Doug Conant: (43:22)
So,

Marianne Lewis: (43:24)
You know, it it, for, for our last question, I, I'd really love to hear what both worries and or encourages you about how companies build leaders today. I think it's that, that's the kind of insight we need, both for our students, but also for the rising leaders that we work with. What's working, what's not working with how companies are developing leaders?

Doug Conant: (43:47)
Well, I think,

Doug Conant: (43:53)
I think, I think they have to focus on creating high engagement cultures. Mm-hmm . It's not how a manager's developing a leader. Uh, that's part of it. But there's gotta be a culture that is tough-minded on standards and kindhearted with people that is living and breathing. And, and then the managers have to help the rising leaders develop, develop the skills to operate in that world. Uh, and they have to pull a Gandhi. They have to be the change that the enterprise is talk, talking about. And, uh, it's not about, and what happens is, we, we get into the short term and performance feedback, and you gotta work on your time management skills. So we're gonna send you to time management school, or, you know, your, your strategic thinking needs a little work. So we're gonna send you to a strategic thinking program. Uh, or, you know, you've gotta work on your empathy.

Doug Conant: (45:04)
You know, you're, you're, you gotta work on some of those people's skills. So we're gonna get you a coach. Uh, we start dealing with the symptoms of this issues, but not with the root cause, which is a culture that's not adequate for leading people in a Bonny world. Mm-hmm . And, uh, so I think we have to, and one other piece of that, the reason I wrote the blueprint book, um, so we're dealing with all the skills, but their foundations are so flimsy that the skills just don't get traction. They don't know who they are. They don't know what their convictions are. As soon as they get challenged, they run the other way. Uh, they're anxious. Uh, they, and so what I started doing when I was a CEO at Campbell, I started teaching high potential people. I had a two year program where we, we said, we're gonna help you figure out who you are, and then we're gonna help you connect that to our expectations.

Doug Conant: (46:12)
Yeah. And sadly, most people don't know who they are. . Yeah. Take some work and, oh, I didn't, uh, I mean, it's not, I didn't mm-hmm. I had to lose a job. And then I was blessed to be with a, a real gifted outplacement guy. But most people don't have that kind of blessing in the face of a crucible moment. But these people are facing crucible moments every day. Right. Right. And, uh, the culture needs to be helping them figure out, how are you gonna sort through this? How are you doing? Let's help you get settled, and then let's work on your time management skills. But the answer is not go to time management school. No. You're skipping this big step. No, and, and last thought, all the good leaders I know are really well anchored. They know who they are. They know, uh, what their purpose is in life.

Doug Conant: (47:07)
They know their values. I mean, I just, Jim Collins just publishing his, probably his last book. I just got it. Two. Oh, good. I was gonna say I haven't seen it. No, you wouldn't. It's not out yet. I'm gonna, uh, but he sent me a copy and, uh, and it's all about how important it is to be anchored yourself and develop your own leadership journey, which is what the blueprint was about, which he endorsed when I wrote that book and the Cynthia Covey book, that was it. It, it was, uh, living Life and Crescendo, why Your most important Work is always ahead of You. Uh, but you've gotta be anchored in this with who you are, so you know what your important work is. That's right. So you can be working on it. And, uh, so this this notion of, uh, my language, if you wanna get unstuck, if you wanna get out of this, you gotta go in. Mm-hmm . Is, is the essence of the challenge.

Marianne Lewis: (48:13)
Thank you, Doug. I mean, speaking of kindred spirits, I always so value being with you and appreciate

Doug Conant: (48:19)
All Oh, you say that to all

Marianne Lewis: (48:19)
The guys. I know

Doug Conant: (48:21)
Better come on Marianne. But I appreciate it.

Marianne Lewis: (48:25)
Yeah, thank you. Thank you for being here.

Grant Freking: (48:26)
Thank you for listening to this episode of Bearcats Mean Business. If today's episode sparked a new idea, challenged your thinking or helped you see your path a little more clearly, be sure to subscribe, leave a review and share the episode with someone in your network. Thanks for being part of the conversation. And remember, real world success begins here at Lindner.

Grant Freking: (00:00)
What does real world success in business actually look like? Welcome the Bearcats Mean Business, the official podcast of the University of Cincinnati's Carl H. Lindner College of Business, where inspiring career stories, honest lessons, and fresh business perspectives from the people building impact in the real world. Come together, tune in for inspiration, practical business insights, and forward-looking thought leadership on how ambition turns into action. And now for today's episode,

Marianne Lewis: (00:31)
I'm here with Jude Schramm. Thank you Jude, so much for joining us today. It's great to meet today. It's fantastic. Um, Jude, you, you're currently Chief Information Officer at Fifth Third Bank and one of our most valued strategic partners, um, both as at fifth third, and you as a liaison as well as on our, um, business advisory council and a Treasure Cincinnati community leader. I just, I call that out because I think it's just really important for all of our listeners, particularly our students, to understand the role model you are coming from here as a student. Mm-hmm . To CIO now. So I just, I wanna thank you for your inspiration. Oh, ahead of time. Great.

Jude Schramm: (01:08)
Yeah. No thanks. Appreciate that.

Marianne Lewis: (01:10)
You know, I do think yours is a remarkable journey from, you know, a uc student to CIO mm-hmm . But no one's career path is what you expect Right. At the time. It's, they're windy, they're surprising, uh, when you look back mm-hmm . Which is always a better viewpoint, you know, looking backwards and forwards. Were there some particular pivotal early experiences and if maybe even if you picked one that helped shape where you are now and how

Jude Schramm: (01:35)
Yeah, for sure. Um, first of all, thanks for letting me be here. I do appreciate getting a chance to come up and hang out on campus and spend time with you. So I do appreciate that. Um, you know, my career, to your point, everybody career is different. And one of the thing I will say is, you know, way back when I was here ages and ages ago, and the stone ages of really the technology timeframe, I didn't even know that I knew to hope to be in the, luckily the position I'm in today. I mean, I, I never really had a vision to become a CIO or a vision to become a business leader. Um, maybe even until I even got into the role of CIO I always just wanted to gravitate to solving problems, learning continuously about my profession and how to be good at what I do, which eventually went from being good at as a technologist to good as a leader.

Jude Schramm: (02:26)
Um, but there were a couple pivotal moments that I, um, you know, I I, I do cite sometimes when I'm talking to people about career. One in particular for me was, you know, I was probably a mid-level manager at General Electric when I was there and on my way to, to more senior leadership positions. And in a culture like that, a lot of times your success was looked at also, not just your professional, like how you show up, but there is a lot to the org hierarchy. Who do you lead? How big is your organization? Where do you fit inside that hierarchy? And probably two roles before my CIO job, um, is when the iPhone came out. Oh. And the gentleman who was leading the, uh, services division for, for the aviation business here had said, Hey, I'm gonna go spend $30 million just r and d to figure out what this thing can do.

Jude Schramm: (03:22)
'cause I think these are gonna be really big for business. And he told my boss at the time, I'd like to have somebody come lead this for me. And so we were talking about it at a staff meeting and I raised my hand and said, I, I wanna do it. And she said, no, you don't. This is a individual contributor. Go experiment, figure stuff out. It's not gonna help you get to your next level. I don't think you want to do that. And I had to literally argue back and forth with her for almost a week. I said, I don't care about those things. I just want to be a part of this thing. 'cause I think it's important. And so I did, I took a job with no direct reports, a job where I had no real responsibility other than to figure this thing out for the company.

Jude Schramm: (04:05)
Um, and I had a lot of people that were my peers who were like, why are you taking yourself off of the leadership track? And I'm like, I don't, like, I didn't have a good answer for them. Mm-hmm . But that thing led to my next two roles, um, that were leading kind of digital for the business. And then for the larger GE corporation trying to establish the digital business for General Electric, which ultimately was my role before I was CIO there at, at Aerospace. And so, like, the lesson from that for me was like, you can't get stuck in the hierarchy in a career path. You gotta be willing to go and put yourself in different positions and in different places that may not look normal to everybody. But I followed something that meant a lot to me. It was the continuing education of my belief and where technology was going, and it worked out pretty well for me. So that, that was a probably a big pivotal moment for me in my career making that decision. Oh. But

Marianne Lewis: (04:52)
I love that story, Jude, because I mean, it was, you know, you get these questions of why are you getting off the leadership track and it actually propelled you. I mean, you jumped upward on that track, but you don't know that when you're making that call. No.

Jude Schramm: (05:04)
And I didn't make it for that reason. I had no real, even at that point, I had no real aspiration to be like a CIO, if you will. I just wanna keep learning and, and, and growing and challenging. I think that allows me to have a skill to contribute to the company and to keep, I guess, justifying my right to just be at the company, period. Forget the level or the mm-hmm . Title.

Marianne Lewis: (05:21)
You know, I think it leads to that. That's a, a pilot type project. I've now known you long enough to know that you've led multiple big digital transformations. Yeah. Right. Thinking about full scale systems and others. Right? Now, I know you think all the time about generative AI every day, but man, how do you even start, Jude? I mean, you're at a Fortune 500 Yeah. Company leading a digital transformation. What do you begin

Jude Schramm: (05:47)
On something like that? You know, it's a good question, especially with ai. 'cause it is very different from, if you think about the generation of like the businesses on the internet and e-commerce. Yeah. Or you think about the move to cloud from traditional on premises, major enterprise systems, those all required a whole different kind of, not just skillset, but an understanding of traditional IT enterprise stuff. Mm-hmm . And they had to roll out and deploy in ways that it felt more like a traditional IT thing. AI, to your point, is very different because it's one of the first times a majorly disruptive technology is coming into the, the business and the normal personal lifestyles of people with really no forward requirement for a bunch of advanced technology migration to a new thing. It just is there. Right. And so, you know, for me that it is a bit of a different journey with AI than the others.

Jude Schramm: (06:43)
Because one of the things that I started doing three years ago was just spending a large amount of time understanding, like at its foundation how AI happens from a technology perspective. And we have a great leader at Fifth Third that we, we have, um, who's been here for, you know, it was it, he'd been here for a while, left and then came back to, to do this with me. And it's spending hours and hours and hours with him and just doing research and, and, and experimentation on my own personal time Okay. With all these technologies to learn it. Because I think you have to have some level of understanding of how it works before you can, thinking about how would you then start to apply it into a company or into the business, which is now where we are is like, how do we apply this and apply this at scale? Um, but it took a lot of personal time up front. That makes sense. Like I told my team, I was spending probably almost the same amount of time learning and experiment with AI as I was doing my day job for probably the better part of a year, you know, or so before we started to even put it into actual the people's hands at the company.

Marianne Lewis: (07:44)
I so appreciate the way you just explained that, because when I think of digital transformations, I think of the examples you gave prior, like moving to cloud or others. Yeah. You, you can almost picture a Gantt chart and a project management like, you know, kind of this, this flow. Yeah. It's this amorphous thing. Ai Yes. And it's here. And, and your level of experimentation, I don't know, it even brings me back to your example of the phone. Yeah, yeah. Right. The iPhone is, we don't even know what it could or should do

Jude Schramm: (08:11)
Yet. No. And, and, and it's changing so fast what we think it can do today. It's the first technology that there's been a cycle for me personally, where like, it's going so fast. The things that we want to do with it, by the time we actually get to the point being able to do something, the underlying capabilities have dramatically changed. And we find ourselves continuously pivoting. Our strategy adapt. Whereas like the overarching strategy hasn't changed. But the how is different six months ago from today is completely different with how we're looking to apply it.

Marianne Lewis: (08:41)
Much more ready, fire, aim. Yeah. Right.

Jude Schramm: (08:44)
And

Marianne Lewis: (08:45)
100% then adapt as you go. Yeah. Well, which makes me think about security mm-hmm . Because it's such an issue and everybody's talking about it. Yep. I, I wanna take it into a particular area. 'cause I, I know you well, I've so valued you as an advisor and you're a man of principle mm-hmm . I, I'd love to know how your own values and principles play into the way you think about cybersecurity. Yeah. Because especially as you're moving so fast. Yeah,

Jude Schramm: (09:08)
That's a, that's a great question.

Marianne Lewis: (09:09)
You've gotta have a high level.

Jude Schramm: (09:10)
It is. And the, the way that I think about it is when, when we look at either the existing ways we're trying to protect customers right? Or protect our employees, um, AI or not, right? We really try to put that at the forefront of every decision we make when we're putting technology out into our environments for people to use. Right. And so, AI's no different. And for me it, it's gotta start with that foundational principle of like, I can get a lot of stuff out there, but if I do it ahead of knowing how we're gonna protect the people that are gonna use it mm-hmm . Then it's creating an unnecessary risk that people don't even know they're being exposed to. And so we do spend a lot of time, like when we are putting AI in, you know, we're probably by all measures with most other banks, we're doing pretty good.

Jude Schramm: (09:53)
We're probably deploying AI at the pace of the trillionaire banks and that kind of stuff. Mm-hmm . But what a lot of people don't probably know is that we're one of the few banks that the first year while I was experimenting personally, me and our head of AI and some other people, what we were also building was our governance framework for how do you deploy simultaneously ai. Yeah. So to parallel, we had a policy written before we ever put one thing in the environment. We had, um, a framework for how we are trying to assess and evaluate ai. In fact, um, we have two patents that were awarded to us at the end of last year around generative ai. And both of them are really patents around the way we're protecting the AI from getting either jailbroken or compromised. And so we are, we are constantly thinking about how do we protect the customers? How do we protect the employees? Um, so that when we do put it out there, we already have a good sense of what that means. And even today, our cybersecurity teams are doing a ton of experimentation with how do we detect AI in the environment, especially bad AI that we don't know or don't want in there. And so we're, we're, we're doing a ton of investment in that relative to the overall IT spend on ai. It, it's a, it's a big piece of it. It

Marianne Lewis: (11:00)
Has to be. Yeah. I I I, I won't say the company, but I had a, a, a another, um, strategic partner here recently saying that they were hit about 7,000 times a day. Yeah. Does that sound like a crazy number to you? Does it

Jude Schramm: (11:12)
Sound about way? No, we get, we get hit tens of thousands of times a day with attempts to, to break in easily.

Marianne Lewis: (11:17)
Yeah. I don't think people quite realize when, when you say cybersecurity is that level of, of risk, it's nonstop. It's huge.

Jude Schramm: (11:23)
It's nonstop.

Marianne Lewis: (11:24)
And the fact that you were ahead of it and thinking so early is I think just something for us all to think about further. You know, you've, you've now, this is your second time as A-C-C-I-O. Yes. Right? You were, you were a ge uh, then this was pre GE Aerospace, but it was in the aerospace space.

Jude Schramm: (11:41)
It was aviation at the time. It was aviation as part of the bigger GE company pirate of them breaking it out.

Marianne Lewis: (11:46)
Is the role changing for you? Yeah. I mean, not just in the institutions being different, the organizations, but

Jude Schramm: (11:52)
Just Yeah, for sure. I think, you know, if you go way back to when I wasn't the CIO and I remember interacting with the first CIO, like at that kind of a senior level, um, there was definitely much more of a sense of your job is to run the IT department. Right? Okay. In in, what I mean by that is, I don't know that the CIO 20 years ago was sitting around the business leadership table. They reported into the CFO or to somebody else, run the infrastructure and Yeah. And they were responsible for running the infrastructure mm-hmm . Making sure that, you know, always jokingly say the ones and zeros and the spinning discs were always up and running and moving and working. You know, the, one of the great things about working at, at Aerospace when I was there, when in the, in the old form of the company was, it was about an era where the CIO was becoming a business leader as well.

Jude Schramm: (12:38)
And you were expected not just to know the technology, but know how it was really delivering value to the company, whether it be in the efficiency side of simplifying and automating internal processes to delivering and enabling revenue generation, which is, you know, I think there was a lot of articles over the last number of years about the CIO is a business leader in da, which is all great. I think, I think today even just, you know, if you think about the journey we're talking about with AI mm-hmm . I think that the CIO is those things, and also a throwback to some of the understanding of like, I'm expected to help the entire company understand how to make the best use of AI to make their jobs more effective, more efficient, whether again, it's to add more scale, to take more streamlining or to help contribute to revenue.

Jude Schramm: (13:25)
And it's a perfect blend of the two because, you know, if you, again, I don't know, I, I assume that you guys have wrote out like something like copilot here at mm-hmm . At uc, everybody can use it. Nobody really knows how it works. Right. Right. They know how to use it and they don't need to know how it works necessarily, but somebody does. And I think there's a big expectation, at least at Fifth Third, that I'm able to both be a understanding of the business side of, of our company and the technology side in a way that those two things are almost an explicit, explicitly tied Yeah. To value whether that value is on revenue or on expense mm-hmm . And so it's a big evolution to the point that, you know, I, because you we'll probably talk about this a lot, about like, what is the future of AI looking for jobs?

Jude Schramm: (14:13)
Mm-hmm . And dah, dah dah da da. Like, it makes me almost an HR person at that point too, because I get asked that question, what is gonna happen to jobs if AI comes in? And like, you can't really not, you can't really ask hr. They don't know. Like they don't know how the technology can or should disrupt the company. But it's my job to know that and figure that out and feed that back into the rest of the company to make it part of our strategy. So you start to take on different roles as a CIO now because of the way that the technology's changing the landscape.

Marianne Lewis: (14:43)
I appreciate the way you, you just described that, Jude, because I mean, I can think back in history of these periods where, say manufacturing went from making the widgets to being strategic, or HR went from just run the, the, the policies to being strategic. And Yeah. And I can absolutely see that with the information side, but it's also not just strategic to the CEO or the board, you're saying, I mean, it's the team mm-hmm . And helping all the team be Yeah. A multiplier effect.

Jude Schramm: (15:11)
That's right. That's right. I mean, you gotta enable them all, but to enable them all, you have to have a perspective and some level of, um, understanding of what they're trying to do as a leader and their function, right? Mm-hmm. And that's, that's important.

Marianne Lewis: (15:23)
It's changing fast though, and you're at the table, you're, you're key to the vision around the technology side, particularly in this case for ai. How, how do you stay abreast in with something changing that fast? Yeah. You personally, but also for the vision. So I feel like there's a learning element, but there's a Yep. An organizational element too. Yeah.

Jude Schramm: (15:43)
Um, it's a good question. I mean, I think, I think there's, there's a, there's a whole lot kind of in there. We could, we could probably even unpack. But some of it is, is back to good old human relationships. Like, um, in, in, in our environment, I sit on the same floor as all my peers. We, the head of legal, the head of hr, the head of risk, the head of, you know, da da da, the lines of business and that kind of stuff. And so we spend a lot of time together. Mm. And so I get a chance to understand their view on the rest of the company and what they're trying to drive. I know their priorities. We plan together, we do strategy together. Um, we spend time together. And so I, I, I get to be a part of the inner circle that's creating the environment for fifth Third.

Jude Schramm: (16:28)
Mm-hmm . And so what I then get to do is help them think through how my role and my function can help their goals. And to your point that very quickly is turning into AI is a way to help them do things. And so a lot of times it's, it's thinking through what are you trying to do and is there a way to do it differently than the way you're doing it? And can AI help? That's usually the way the conversation starts. And part of my job is to know enough to help, because what I don't wanna do is pretend like, yes. 'cause one of the things I I see a lot, and you probably do too, is AI's gonna take every problem, solve it. Mm-hmm . Like not true as you know. Um, but if you're not paying, if you're not day to day in it like I'm supposed to be and you're in one of these other, other leadership roles, you probably aren't sure when AI could or should help.

Jude Schramm: (17:14)
And if it can and at what pacing or timing. And that's part of my job is to help make that clear to my, my, my partners in the business. Like, AI can work great here and now because it's ready, as we talked earlier from a mm-hmm . Hardening and scaling. I can protect it, I can, I can do whatever. This is a great place where we could try it in your given area, um, or put it in in your area and have to able to go, it's not ready in yours because the risk is, is not there where the technology isn't mature, mature enough and that kind of stuff. And that's part of my, I think my value contribution right? Is, is making sure that we have those dialogues before they get too excited. 'cause invariably, a lot of people come to them and say, I was at this conference and I saw this.

Jude Schramm: (17:57)
I think they do, and it's gonna save our lives. Mm-hmm. And it's like, me, probably not. Right? And so it, it, it's helping to myth bust a lot of the energy that comes upward to them from their teams. But I think I've built the rapport with all my peers that like, they know, Hey, let me go talk to Jude before we get too excited about this thing. Yeah. So a lot of the company does that with my organization too. It's like, Hey, we see this thing, can it help? It's like, let's, let's bring it back to the governance process and let's have a real conversation about what you're trying to do.

Marianne Lewis: (18:22)
Oh, that's so helpful. Well, I, and it makes me think as well about some of the partnering that we've been doing with the Center for Business Analytics, which we've actually just rebranded as the Center for Business Analytics and ai, because we have been doing so much work. That's great. Um, particularly with strategic partners like Fifth Third, one of the things that, that I've learned with you through you in, in this partnership is the power of use cases. Yes. Because if not, AI is this amorphous thing. Yes. That you're right. People think is a cure all, and we need examples. And I think, and I'm, I'm, I'd love to hear you share a little bit about how the partnership with the center has been helpful for you. Because I certainly know one of the ways it's been very helpful for us is to see it in practice. Yep. Yep. And then to be part of the journey at Fifth Third, both from projects, but also in training. Yep. That's right. I think it's a virtuous cycle.

Jude Schramm: (19:16)
It is. And, and as you know, this is something that we spend some intentional time on. So I know, you know, for me, one of the great things about the partnership between us and the Center for Business Analytics and ai, I got that right, right. You did. Is, you know, and I remember this just, I think it was just last fall, we did a project together where teams were coming down to Fifth Third Center, uh, to work with our data engineering and analytics teams on a business problem. Mm-hmm . Right. And I think that does a lot of things for both of us, by the way. We do too. So one is, um, the forward look to that to me is always the experience that the students get to see how business works. The reverse benefit is we get a chance to interact with university students in a real world environment.

Jude Schramm: (20:00)
And that is always a good feeder for things like co-op programs and internships and post-grad, you know, career opportunities. Because we get to all create an ecosystem where we're collaborating over a problem and people get to almost experience each other and say like, is this a good fit both ways for people. Like, Hey, we really like this student man, we should talk to him about post career. Does he have plans or kind of things where the students can be like, wow, I really either had a good experience or didn't. And maybe this is for me, maybe it isn't. But I think the point is, um, we're bringing real world business problems to the university with an opportunity to say practical application. Mm-hmm . Can we work together to solve it? The university gets to say these are real world business problems that are happening that we can be preparing our students for. And it's just a win-win. And, and, you know, you and I are gonna talk, I think, you know, we have a business analytics meeting next week. We advisory

Marianne Lewis: (20:52)
Meeting, we do advisor

Jude Schramm: (20:52)
Board where I wanted to talk to you about like, putting that on steroids in the coming year where we can get a cycle that's maybe happening up on campus as opposed to students coming down. Oh, fantastic. Both ways. Like can we create a scalable version of that that's got maybe a half dozen problems we're trying to solve coming together through university to put a real ecosystem around this. Um, because I think it's important that as we, as we work together, we keep kind of scaling that up because the other thing it brings for us is it, it's also gives some of my teams a chance to go work in an environment where it feels more innovative. Mm-hmm . Like, not that banking's not exciting, don't get me wrong. It's exciting, but sometimes when you're solving problems and you're solving it in the context of your teams, you, you don't get that sense of excitement and innovation.

Jude Schramm: (21:37)
And I can't tell you how many times people working on the projects with the students, when I'm talking to them, they're like, God, it's like work. It's like being back in school again. Or it's like having this chance to kind of think outside the box because we're working with these students and it's a different dynamic for my teams. That feels refreshing. Right. And so it's a cultural boost to them as well. And so there's just all these benefits of this, the companies get in the university, I think gets as well that do too, starts to form the community between the university and the businesses that we all get and strive for and work hard at anyways. Right. And so what better way to do it than real life problem solving. Right.

Marianne Lewis: (22:12)
Agreed. And whether it's an 18, 19 or here in Lynn, I mean I Yep. I I do I think there's the power of connection, but also space. Yeah. And hundred. And how do, do we make the most of those a hundred? I love that idea, Jude. That's good. I mean, it's not gonna surprise you I think every day also about ai. Yeah. And I'm thinking about it from the education side. I know we're gonna talk about this at the advisory board, but, um, it's vital. We, we need to align our, the education side to the, the business demands. Yes. I would love to hear you share a little bit about what you think we should be doing to make sure that alignment is happening. Yeah,

Jude Schramm: (22:47)
That's a great question. And because I do have a senior in high school coming here next year mm-hmm . I think about this a lot personally and then also professionally. Like what, what's

Marianne Lewis: (22:55)
That? What would you wanna see happening for him?

Jude Schramm: (22:57)
You know, I think, I think there's a couple things. One is I really hope that this myth that gets created sometimes how we don't need higher education anymore. 'cause people can self-serve in companies. It is just gets blown away somehow. 'cause I think it's completely wrong, um, for a number of reasons. It isn't just the education, which I think is fantastic. So context, when Isaac, my son and I were talking about degrees, he was even like, what do I do? What's AI gonna do? What do I even go into? And I said, you know, I said, when I think about it, um, you know, a finance degree is irreplaceable because it truly teaches you business. And I don't think I appreciated that till I got to fifth third because being in a bank, which is all about money and numbers and finances, um, you really have to, to understand the way that we make business decisions to help that drive anything else that you do. And so he's going to, he's, he's gotta accept it into the finance and he's gonna double that with business analytics.

Marianne Lewis: (23:56)
It's a great combination.

Jude Schramm: (23:57)
Right. And so I think those combinations are great for, to, as you said, because you kind of get the best of both worlds of what I think the future's gonna hold. When you go beyond that, when you ask about the education, I think beyond just the normal way that, that you see it as a great job preparing kids from a true classroom experience and from a co-op and and work experience. Mm-hmm . I think there's an element that I see in some of the, the, the, the, the early career folks that really will benefit in the future from things like really understanding. And I, I think I even talked about this, about structured problem, thinking about one of the things that I got when I was here, uh, was really learning how to solve problems. 'cause I think there's things AI is not gonna be able to, it's not gonna handle relationships. Wasn't

Marianne Lewis: (24:38)
An economics class or something you told me

Jude Schramm: (24:40)
About. It was, it was, it was actually a summer macroeconomic class that I had. It was like seven 30 in the,

Marianne Lewis: (24:45)
I love that you remember that summer? That's so good.

Jude Schramm: (24:47)
You never forget it. Right. . And so, and so, you know, that idea of really understanding how to problem solve mm-hmm . In, in a logical, structured way. Because the one thing I do worry about AI is like, I don't want it to start to get the belief that people don't need to learn how to think and problem solve. That's true. Like, it's gonna be great for a lot of things and maybe someday it'll replace us all. And I'm just a hopeful guy, but I hope not. And I don't, I don't believe it will. Um, I think humans are way more resilient than that. And I think we won't let it happen. Um, but I think being able to come out and know how to problem solve and do structured thinking to know how to interact with people, like, you know, I could go in my soapbox about where the social media economy has created so much isolation mm-hmm .

Jude Schramm: (25:31)
That I see it show up because we are a in-person culture. We don't do a lot of remote work. We have people in the office. 'cause I believe any company, it's cultural. It's definition of culture and how it actually, um, creates path for people to have career pathing needs people to interact mm-hmm . And I think, you know, whether it's the co-op program or just the way that you, we evolve the way that we, you know, have kids doing a lot of interaction to do, not just isolated problem solving, but problem solving in groups really is a big benefit. 'cause you come out of college and nine times outta 10, you're not solving problems by yourself. You're doing it in different settings with different people and trying to solve different problems that you're not an expert in. But it's the collective that matters. And I think that's what education is going to continue to evolve to, is how do we create more, uh, opportunities in the education system, in the university environment to mirror what that looks like out in the business world or should look like in the business world for, you know, a long time.

Jude Schramm: (26:29)
And how has AI become a part of solving this problems and part of those groups, right? Mm-hmm .

Marianne Lewis: (26:33)
No, uh, very, very much so I, I appreciate hearing that, hearing that. And, and we're gonna have a great conversation in a couple weeks through that board meeting. I, so you said, you know, one, one of the concerns is, oh, you know, people are gonna be gone out of all of these processes. Yeah. I'll give you a different one that I hear too often and, and I know keeps people up at night, is that, uh, it's going to eliminate entry level positions. Yep. But boy, those are incredibly important positions for the latter. Totally agree. So I wonder how you think about that at fifth third about, I mean, maybe it's gonna change, or may we think about other ways to Yeah. To develop people for whatever is the appropriate realm. Yep.

Jude Schramm: (27:09)
Yep. I, um, I, I don't think that's gonna happen at scale mm-hmm . And so I think there's a nuance to this question that, that probably merits a little bit of like talking about, here's the way I wanna think about it. I think we are in the hype cycle phase of ai, right? Mm-hmm . And

Marianne Lewis: (27:26)
The.com bubble,

Jude Schramm: (27:28)
I can remember in the.com bubble, I can remember in whatever phase you wanna get at this technology is gonna take over and we're not gonna need people anymore. Mm-hmm . And what happens, some jobs get displaced, but there's always typically newer and more version, more of newer jobs that get created mm-hmm . And so I think, you know, maybe back to our previous question, the university will definitely be staying on top of how are jobs evolving and changing? What new careers are being created with ai? What careers are being disrupted? I don't think it's just about entry level, it's all the way through the, the, the companies. But I think in, in today's world, like in 2026, like really right now, in February, March of 26, we're just in the hype where everybody's saying that it's all gone. We're all gonna go, like you and I have been through this mm-hmm .

Jude Schramm: (28:15)
Right? There will be stability, there will be stabilization. Like I kind of said earlier, um, humans are really good at not at creating self extinction. Right. Last I checked. And so, you know, there is a lot of recognition that I know in conversations I'm at, not just in fifth Third, but at other places where I'm talking about ai, a lot of the recognition of like, I can't eliminate all these people. Like at the end of the day, I'll give you a really good example. My head of engineering and I were talking, 'cause he's like, Hey, a year from now, and he mentioned this in a, in a like, let's talk about this way, the way this is going. I could probably run all of engineering. I have a thousand engineers I can remember run all of engineering with five people, right. And we're going, and I go May maybe, and, and we both like, this is him and I coming to the same conclusion, which is, and when those five people retire, who's gonna re who's gonna replace them?

Jude Schramm: (29:05)
And we were both look and we're like, well, I guess we can't, we can't do that. Right? We don't wanna do that either, but we can't. And so then it's like, okay, so how do we come back, call, you know, everybody get back to normal? What is the right way to think about defining the organization so that we have people coming in at early career that have career pathing up to those roles and there's enough of them that you can have the traditional hierarchy of people having careers at every level that are meaningful mm-hmm . And they continue to drive a career path upward. And so we are in a phase of trying to understand like, what does the future look like? Because there's, and I mean mean this in a serious way. There's just talk about there's gonna be agents that are gonna be part of an org hierarchy at some point mm-hmm .

Jude Schramm: (29:47)
Right. Non-human engineers that are sitting in an org chart. Maybe not for real, but kind of when you think about it, right. But part of what I'm getting at, we're really trying to think about will there be disruption? Yes. Do I know where that will be? I don't. I also know there will be new opportunities for new job creation and new types of jobs. And it's kind of my job as the CIO back to some to help figure out what that's gonna look like. Right. Because I don't wanna sit here and say, yeah, there won't be this or there won't be. I, I don't know. But I will tell you that sitting here today, every company I talk to of any real size will tell you we don't want AI to eliminate people. We want AI to allow us to help people do more. It's about scale. As opo a scale of what we can do versus doing more with non-human. That's not anybody's current like mega plan, if you will.

Marianne Lewis: (30:38)
I'm glad you're hearing that too. Yeah. The other one I've, I, I so appreciated it in a, at a different meeting, someone said, your ultimate job needs to be teaching students how to learn faster. Yes. And that was a really good takeaway for me. That's great. Because I do think that's the power of co-op. It's it's is about the learning process Yep. But also being really intentional about it. And we have the power or value of experience and wisdom, whatever age, whatever you wanna call it, that we've seen cycles come and go. That's right. It doesn't mean we're gonna be complacent, it just means we have some confidence that we'll learn how to adapt. That's right. I think these younger students, we need to help them.

Jude Schramm: (31:15)
I agree a hundred percent. It, it's, it's gonna be, that part of it will be different, right. Because this, to your point, the speed with which it's changing is greater, faster, whatever word you wanna use mm-hmm . Than any cycle we've ever been through. That's right. But at the other side of that, it's something, I was talking to one of my AI product owners yesterday. There still has to be the trust factor that matters. And what I mean by that is one of the core tenets of our AI that we put out there is, uh, is what the industry kind of first is human in the loop. Meaning before anything we go from an AI agent to you as a customer for third, there's some human that's making a decision. Should you get that or not? Yeah. Right. Um, or at some point the customer will be the human in the loop and decide, do I want that or not?

Jude Schramm: (32:01)
But the reason why I bring that up is, is like there's gotta be humans involved because I don't think anybody's ready to turn over the way that a customer's moving money in my world or a way that we're making decision on should you get a loan by an AI agent with no human being a part of that decision. Right. That's, that's not a concept that anybody's ready for. And I think to get from here to being able to trust something like that happening is a long way away. Because you aren't gonna trust it as a customer. My regulators aren't gonna trust it. Who makes sure I'm doing my job to, to to protect you, right? Mm-hmm . And then I'm not gonna trust it because God forbid an an AI agent give you something or do something that I have no knowledge or control over because I just destroyed your trust in fifth Third.

Marianne Lewis: (32:46)
Yeah.

Jude Schramm: (32:46)
Those things are what's going to gate some of the pace of AI disruption. Mm-hmm . And the frenetic conversations about all this stuff is gonna have that filter on it for a long time.

Marianne Lewis: (32:59)
I, I completely agree. Well, and when I'm thinking about, I am gonna go back to the students of, of today, whether it's undergrad, grad, professional students, you, you already called out kind of some of the challenges from post pandemic and AI that have actually, interestingly, the more technological we become, the more we need human skills. Yeah. Yes. Human capabilities. Totally. I wonder if you have some parting thoughts for advice on those human capabilities that we need to be making sure we are also leaning into. Whew.

Jude Schramm: (33:32)
Man, that's a big one.

Marianne Lewis: (33:33)
That is a big one.

Jude Schramm: (33:35)
Um, geez, Louise.

Marianne Lewis: (33:39)
Well, I mean, well, well you're thinking about it. 'cause we can, I mean, I love your point about the teamwork and the collaboration communication. I, I get really worried about the level of isolation. I agree.

Jude Schramm: (33:49)
And that's why I'm like thinking, boy, I can take this a lot of different places. I know I'm with you. Um, do, do you, uh, read or follow anything around like, stuff that, like Professor Scott Galloway?

Marianne Lewis: (33:59)
Oh, yes, yes, yes.

Jude Schramm: (34:01)
So like, that's where my brain goes because I'm listening to the podcast with and Simon Sinek right now. And that's a good one. It is a real good one. If you've, if it's this week's one from Simon Sinek is him and, uh, professor Galloway. Right. So, um, like that's where my brain goes. And it's like, but that's probably not, you know, the way to take it for this one. Um, you know, I do, I, I, uh, you know, I think, you know, back to your point, I, I think that the human element's gonna become more critical. And I think for that socialization has to be important to our students these days. Like at the end of the day, it's very easy to put yourself in isolation. It's not hard because I think we've even lost a little bit of the understanding what isolation means. 'cause I think sometimes people look at the filter through Instagram or TikTok or whatever is, I'm not isolated. I'm in this community that's digital and I may not be talking to you in person, but I'm not alone. And I fundamentally don't believe that that's true. Mm-hmm . Right. I think that as a human, we were built for connection. Right. We were built to have interaction physically face-to-face mm-hmm . Right. And I think in a business context that's equally as important and always has been. We just didn't always know how important it was because we didn't realize it wasn't there because it was there. Right. And of your point that we

Marianne Lewis: (35:19)
Took it for granted.

Jude Schramm: (35:19)
We took it for granted and the pandemic set us into a different model. Um, and then the social media, uh, craze has made it even more isolating and easier to stay isolated. And, you know, one of the things that, that I think is important, and we see this at Fifth Third where we tell people we want you here is that peop we, we just do better as a company when people are problem solving together. Mm-hmm . People are people, people work better, people perform better. I think the, the balance between work and home is easier to separate because we saw that early in the pandemic. I think you probably did too, where people were working from home. Like, I don't know how to stop working 'cause I have no physical, no boundaries. Yeah. My commute used to suck, but it gave me a chance to go from work to home.

Jude Schramm: (36:09)
Mm-hmm . And then a lot of people lost that. Yeah. And then in the, in the company, we saw people that worked remote, they didn't understand the culture. 'cause they'd be like, how do I get promoted to fifth third? I'm like, nobody even knows who you are. Right. So I had, I had one-on-one meetings with a lot of early career people mm-hmm . Um, in 20 21, 22, 23. Because that was the question. I I don't know how to make connection. Yes. And I don't know how to get promoted. And the reality was they told them, you, you can't do that from home office easily 'cause nobody knows who you are and you don't know how we work. And so as we got people back into the office, the biggest beneficiary of that and the group that in our own employee surveys we found was clamoring to come back in, was the early professional.

Jude Schramm: (36:54)
And they came back first and then the middle career people who probably were less incentivized 'cause they're like, eh, I don't care about career, I'm in mine. And we were like, no, no, no. You are the people, the generation that's helping these people know who fifth third is. Mm-hmm . And bringing them together gets us back into a cultural state of the company grows and the company's better because we're here. Mm-hmm . And I think that applies to everything that we do. It applies to coming to class, it applies to the projects that get done here. It applies to your co-ops and your interns. Like I hope that society has the breakaway back from social media isolation back to people going to Uncle Woody's and hanging. I'm sure they do. Don't get me wrong, . Sure. I'm sure they do. But I just think we have to keep reinforcing the benefits of society being together. Um, and we have to keep using that as a way to get people out and functioning and getting away from the isolationism. Right. Because that's gonna be really critical for a healthy society. Is technologists always gonna find a way to make us more isolated if we wanna allow it. Mm-hmm . And we gotta find a way to not do that. Yeah.

Marianne Lewis: (38:01)
To counter

Jude Schramm: (38:02)
It. I dunno if that answered your question with this.

Marianne Lewis: (38:03)
Oh, it very much did Jude. I, I, I so appreciate it. I wanna just say, you know, thank you again, thank you for your inspiration, your role model, uh, also as an advisor and a strategic partner with Fifth Third, I mean, we are learning together in a very fast moving world. We are about the power of technology and very much the power of human. Well thank you. Or humanity. Yeah. So thank you.

Jude Schramm: (38:24)
Well, and can I just say thanks Pat 'cause Sure. You know, as you know, you, the University of Cincinnati is our number one partner down at, at fifth Third, and we had a thing down in the, we did that was three earlier. Was that late last year? God talk. Yes.

Marianne Lewis: (38:35)
With all the alumni. Third,

Jude Schramm: (38:36)
We brought everybody back. There are hundreds of people down there. And, um, you know, this university's been instrumental and you, and honestly you personally, and then Lindner is a, is the business college, um, have been critical to the growth of Fifth Third and to the culture that's been created. So we love partnering with you guys and, and I look forward to continuing to do that. So thank you guys and thank you personally, Marianne.

Marianne Lewis: (38:56)
Absolutely. Jude. Yeah. Thank you. Onward. Absolutely. And go Bearcats. Yes,

Jude Schramm: (38:59)
Go Bearcats.

Grant Freking: (39:00)
Thank you for listening to this episode of Bearcats Mean Business. If today's episode sparked a new idea, challenge your thinking or helped you see your path a little more clearly, be sure to subscribe, leave a review and share the episode with someone in your network. Thanks for being part of the conversation. And remember, real world success begins here at Lindner.

Grant Freking: (00:00)
What does real world success in business actually look like? Welcome the Bearcats Mean business, the official podcast of the University of Cincinnati's, Carl h Lindner College of Business, where inspiring career stories, honest lessons, and fresh business perspectives from the people building impact in the real world, come together, tune in for inspiration, practical business insights, and forward-looking thought leadership on how ambition turns into action. And now for today's episode. All right. So Dustin, thank you for being here. You are the CEO of two companies, ranger Steel and Craft force. How do you have the bandwidth to head two companies and is there a relationship between the two organizations?

Dustin Grutza: (00:43)
There is a relationship that makes it a lot easier to have the bandwidth, thankfully, but, um, you know, managing time that, that is the biggest thing that I have to, uh, factor in, helped. I can imagine. I've, yeah, I've helped from a lot of my team members in doing so, and have a lot of leaders that I have in positions that can take care of what they need to do. So a big part of that is not just, um, there's, there is my time management, but my time management and, um, delegating the right things, having the right team members on board so that it's not all on me at all. I, I would never say that being a CEO, if you do not have a good team, you're not gonna have a good company. And, uh, I totally, I'm thankful for the team that I do have and all the work that they're able to do because without 'em it would not happen.

Grant Freking: (01:28)
Ranger is something that was founded by your parents, correct?

Dustin Grutza: (01:31)
Yes, it was actually, we are in our 30th year, so 30 years going strong. I'd say I kind of took over about 10 years ago as far as, uh, really I came to the business 15, but okay. About 10 years ago, really started taking it over and pushing things and then, um, got named CEO last year. And so, uh, we're trying to really take things to the next level.

Grant Freking: (01:51)
What role has that played in your own separate entrepreneurial journey, which we'll kind of get to your other individual contributions and companies, but what is role has like kind of growing up in the family business played in that?

Dustin Grutza: (02:01)
I think it's played, played a large role. You know, when seeing my parents start their business, kind of go from my mom working in a daycare, um, yeah, having about 40 kids and owning a daycare, working at nights, doing bookkeeping. As my dad was starting a company, him and a couple other guys and some trucks, um, pushing things on the heavy industrial side, you know, trying to kind of live that American dream. To now we have like 24 trucks and, you know, Freightliners and Cranes and all the different stuff. And kind of seeing that growth as I was, uh, I think they started when I was, what, 10 years old? Yeah. So seeing that, um, change not just, um, the work that they're putting into it, working day and night, but also, uh, how that impacted, uh, what they're able to do outside of work and, uh, be involved in different things. So I think seeing that, and then I was naturally kind of brought into leadership roles my whole life, uh, especially when you're young athletics, right? As a point point guard or I was a quarterback, I just kind of fell into these like leadership roles. So it only felt right. I think that in my stepping stones as working and moving through things that, that was, I was bound to become , A CEO or in some sort of a leadership role in my life. Yeah, there's

Grant Freking: (03:14)
Like a tone of fulfillment. I can sense in your voice. Were you inspired by your parents in, in kind of witnessing this?

Dustin Grutza: (03:20)
A thousand percent. I mean, they are workers like . My dad, like if they're going on vacation to go sit on a beach, they're gonna sit on the beach for a little bit, but they're gonna be walking, they're gonna be doing stuff. Yeah. My dad's looking for work. He loves farming, you know, he is got, he's still involved very heavily at Ranger, but loves to do something else all the time. It's the same with my mom. And so seeing that attitude, that mentality, that work ethic, uh, through my life, I mean, I think it helped instill the grit in me in the same way. And, uh, when I was playing sports here at uc, it was kind of the same thing. You know, I wasn't the biggest guy, I wasn't the fastest guy. Um, but I was starting and pushing in, in a leadership role the whole time because of that. You know, it's like you want it and go work for it.

Grant Freking: (04:03)
Right. How do you compare and contrast the running the two companies as, as we've talked about, ranger as a family business that you grew up with and in craft force with something that you founded years ago. So how do you compare and contrast the two?

Dustin Grutza: (04:17)
Um, very different and, um, many ways. Okay. I'll start by talking about like my own company, right? So in starting at craft force and starting my own thing, um, I am able to instill a lot of the practices or leadership qualities, uh, that I think are the most important in how we communicate and how we do a lot of our, our work, right? So by doing that, I have more influence, and I wouldn't say control it, but have I am able to build it from the ground up. With my parents' business, they didn't have a lot of that background. They were grinding and pushing and growing and also in a different time. And so that company grew and was expanding, but I think there was less of that. Let's set up the structure. Let's make sure we have the right pieces in place so that we can grow more.

Dustin Grutza: (05:03)
It was more like grow and figure it out in a lot of ways. And so, which is great, and that's how you do, that's how you do businesses. Um, but, um, I think with that, uh, coming into a family business, I think a lot of people who have family businesses can kind of relate as you are growing or trying to make, uh, changes that might be for the better. It's a little more difficult because you need to get everybody on board, right? And, um, as you're doing that and changing a way we're creatures of habit, uh, you know, creatures of routine making those changes are a little bit more difficult, uh, midway through. So, um, that's been some of the challenges, but also a way that I think I've seen successes of certain things of craft force and certain things that we've tried that haven't worked. But by having that smaller company that've started from the beginning that we've kind of built this around, I've been able to instill some of those practices into Ranger, which has helped it, uh, as it's been really growing over the past few years.

Grant Freking: (06:01)
Let's, let's wind the clock back even a little bit more. Why did you wanna get your business education at Lindner and the University of Cincinnati?

Dustin Grutza: (06:09)
Uh, you know, this is a great school. Uh, uh, university of Cincinnati was close to home. Um, a lot of choosing Cincinnati had to do with sports at that time, right? Um, so I was coming here and actually the engineering school had a big part too. I was looking at how, how do I find a degree that kind of combines business and engineering. Okay. And, um, I thought at first I was just gonna get my mechanical engineering degree and then get a MBA afterwards. I was kind of the, the game plan. But, um, as you get going, you realize if you're gonna be a full-time, uh, athlete and play quarterback, you may not have time for co-ops and other, uh, pieces of that puzzle, uh, related to the engineering side. But on the business side, I could do a lot of, uh, the other programs and kind you could co-op at different times or summer or work for other entities.

Dustin Grutza: (06:54)
So it worked out as a better option. They had a, a combined degree for me and, uh, but choosing, choosing University of Cincinnati had to do with, um, it's great school. Um, loved the city of Cincinnati. It was close to home. Parents would be able to come watch me play and do all those different things. But the school itself had all the pluses and I saw the ways that the co-op program brought out, uh, just enabled you to get in touch with the city and help the city grow. And I think that's still the case. So many people who go through the co-op program, they find their university or their find, they find their, their landing, um, position or, or company, I should say, their career through that co-op program and continue it from there.

Grant Freking: (07:38)
Right. We touched on leadership a little bit earlier, um, and I want to revisit that. You mentioned being the quarterback and point guard growing up, and you were the quarterback of the football team here at uc. How did being the quarterback influence your views on leadership and culture and team building and any, is, how much of that is translatable to what you do now?

Dustin Grutza: (08:00)
Uh, all, all of it. I mean, in every way. I, I think, I think sports, um, transfers into business very easily, um, because of coaches and pushing things and, and how, uh, you have to have leaders within, especially in football leaders within each division, right? You have a linebacker, uh, core. You have safeties and defensive backs. You have offensive line, you have quarterbacks, receivers, you have these different segments, but you need a leader within each one of those. And then you need a leader for the whole offense and leader for the whole defense and a leader on the field for the whole team, you know, the captains, and then you need the coach. You have your coaches who are the leaders. And so you have to have that same structure in business. In order to be really successful, you need leaders at all areas. So like when I, looking at the construction business, you have leaders in, obviously your executive, your finance, your operations off the operations.

Dustin Grutza: (08:53)
You may have different divisions that someone needs to be leading those divisions, right? And then all the way to the job that you're doing, uh, you get down to a four man crew pushing a job. Maybe they're building a building, right? You need someone leading that crew helping make sure everything's going the right way. And so that continuation of leadership and having the same message and the same values, um, you see that through football and that transfers right into business. So I think there is a great collaboration there. Yeah. And so I learned all that through football, I feel like. And so as I went into the workforce, it was like, oh, this all makes so much sense.

Grant Freking: (09:26)
And now that you've ascended to leadership positions in two companies, how do you determine the leaders that are under you? Do they reveal themselves or do you have, do push people? How does that work for you?

Dustin Grutza: (09:38)
Usually they're, they reveal themselves. Okay. They come asking for more, and not just like more money or anything like that. They finish something and they're looking, they have more time. They wanna do more. They have ideas that they bring forward. They start showing themselves as leaders within what they're doing and the group that they're working in. And others go to them for answers, um, and start working with them. And they just kind of, many times they show themselves. But as you're recruiting those types of people, or you're recruiting people in, um, lots of times that's what you're looking for. You're, you're looking for the intangibles of who they are, how they are, uh, more so than their experience. And, oh, I worked on these jobs and I have this, you might find someone who didn't work on at all at a position who has ended up going to run that division because they're willing to learn and they're work hard, and they have what it takes in so many other ways. They just needed some experience at what that is.

Grant Freking: (10:30)
Yeah. Just needed the opportunity. Right? Yeah. You've co-founded several companies since you earned your undergraduate and MBA degrees from Lindner. What voids were you seeking to fill with those startups, and what did you learn from those experiences?

Dustin Grutza: (10:42)
I think at the time I didn't think, uh, ranger was going to be like the landing spot for me. I think family business, I, I knew I, I could go in and help them, help them grow, but I thought, you know, there might be something else that I want to kind of build and put my name to. And, um, those other companies, I had ideas coming out. I did the entrepreneurial, uh, integrals here at College of Business then. And so I was very, I don't know, enamored by the startup world, what it can be. And as I started pushing those different companies, um, I always say fail early. Fail fast. You know, push everything as hard as you can early on. And if it's gonna fail and you see that it's gonna fail, then, then know that that's, that's not the right direction. Either pivot within that company or say, that was fun. That was great effort learned a lot. 'cause that, that's the biggest thing from each of those, uh, companies that I may have partnered into or we started, um, that didn't end up, you know, making it, I learned so much that was applicable to our other companies. Um,

Grant Freking: (11:47)
Yeah. How did, let's push on that further. What are, what are some of the, you know, things when, when you're sitting at your office today and something comes up or whatever, it's some sort of situation like, oh, I remember this from the startup days. What, what are some of the sort of, the examples of that you can think of?

Dustin Grutza: (12:01)
I think one big one would be relationships. Okay. Um, so as you were talking about building, building teams and doing all those different things, that's very important. But, um, sometimes you look at like, what's the core of a business? I take craft force, right? It's staffing in the trades. That's what we do. We find, uh, the best skilled trade workers, um, and we place them on jobs all across the country. And then, you know, that stems up to engineers and to laborers. But that's kind of our main focus. Well, we try to replace it with an app, think, uh, LinkedIn, um, think of those types of apps that are, uh, going to have communication through a network, but we wanted people to be able to hire through it as well. More like indeed, I would say,

Grant Freking: (12:41)
Yeah, create that link.

Dustin Grutza: (12:43)
So we tried to do all this where tech would be us and replace us, but what we found out is like, we're all human, you know? And so certain parts of what we wanna do, deal with and work for work in business has to do with the relationships that we can have. And so we found out that the people, especially who work in the trades, want those relationships. They want someone to help them act as almost like an agent if you were thinking of acting or, you know, the arts, like they're working all day so they don't have time to work on their next job. So they need someone to act in that way and have their best interest and understand what they really want. And so by trying to do that with tech, it didn't fill the void. It, it actually created, um, it made our business much more difficult.

Dustin Grutza: (13:28)
And what we learned, we ended up trashing that whole tech side. We thought that was gonna be our, our leg out. That was gonna be our, you know, multimillion dollar idea. We're gonna a differentiator. Yeah, we're gonna, this, we're gonna be the first in the trades to do this. Other trade companies have tried to do it has not worked either because it's a relationship, um, industry that is very much focused on, uh, on that side of things. So, uh, we learned from that and what our core competency, competency was as a company. So now, as far as how we do staffing and everything else, it's all about relationships. Everything we do, recruiting our clients, everything is all about relationships. And, and so we stay boutique because of that, because we know it's more important for us to have really strong relationships with our clients and the recruiting that we do. All of our different, our workforce versus, um, we don't need those relationships. We're just gonna let tech do it, and we're gonna have win by having the masses.

Grant Freking: (14:21)
Right. Well, speaking of relationships and engagement, you've become involved with uc and Lindner as an alum. Let's begin with your time with the Center for Entrepreneurship, for example, speaking like, uh, just the most recent example that I know of, you were involved with uc Startup Weekend. Yeah. Tell me about that and what other, what other things you're involved with, I guess the Entrepreneurship Center. We'll start there.

Dustin Grutza: (14:43)
Yeah. Um, 1819 Hub, um, we have some great relationships over there. Uh, Kate and some of the crew have kind of really brought us in to, uh, do more and more and, um, love to go over there and speak when I have the chance. But, uh, startup Weekend recently, they brought me in to be kind of a final judge, which was fun, you know, being the shark in the room. But, uh, honestly, the gr I learned just as much doing that because I got to hear what I'd say the youth, you know, I guess I'm getting old now, but, uh, uh, everyone here at the university sees as the greatest problems and what, what in our world that they need to solve, that they're trying to solve with apps or whatever it may be, right? The businesses that they see we need in our world in order to handle those, those problems. And so for me, understanding what problems they see versus what I might've thought was completely different. So I learned so much about that. And then also got to see how applications of, um, putting decks together, market research, how ai, uh, connects to all this. Now I got to see how the students are able to do that in different ways. And, um, it was, like I said, it was a learning experience on my side, but also great to see how far along the students are going through this university.

Grant Freking: (16:03)
So what are, what were some of your more specific takeaways in, in dealing with students? What are they coming to you for advice for? I guess maybe specifically as a business owner?

Dustin Grutza: (16:12)
Uh, I think they are coming for the leadership. Um, how, how have I been able to build what I have? Um, how do you continue that success and then the network, you know, I think when I spoke a few different times to them or had off conversations, a lot of it was talking about how, how do you get to where you're at and what steps do I need to take? And so I talk a lot about networking, how great Cincinnati is for that. Uh, you have business leaders all over the community who are willing to go have breakfast with you, who are willing to help, uh, who actually care. So you have that, that side of, um, you know, that Midwest, um, niceness approach that Yeah, they're approachable. Yeah. Yeah. That you can actually get a, I get advisors, have mentors, do all the different things that, um, is way more difficult if you're in the Bay or, you know, New York City or something like that.

Dustin Grutza: (17:03)
So I also learned from the businesses that they're trying to build, it was all about relationships. So everyone seems to want to have more phone down personal relationships, which for me, in my business is like exactly what we do as I was talking before. Yeah. So I was able to touch base on that, and I think it connected really well with me. Yeah. You know, that connection of, Hey, we need more time with our phones down. We need to have personal relationships with people, and how do we get there? And I think, I think the youth of, you know, of our world are trying to figure that out right now because they're so tied to their phones.

Grant Freking: (17:44)
Right. What are some of the other involvement you've had, uh, I guess maybe more recently or in the past with, um, Lindner or uc? I think you, you, I know you've been touch involved with athletics too in the past.

Dustin Grutza: (17:54)
Yeah. Uh, I do a lot with athletic athletics. Actually, I'm the head of our, you know, director of our alumni for the football side. Um, I meet with a lot of the team there with athletic department, but on the lender side, I've, uh, stayed in touch with the entrepreneurship, um, team a lot. So like Chuck Matthews. Yep. And I, I'll go speak at some of his classes. I talk with him fairly often. So, um, definitely stay connected through that entrepreneurship side because of all that I do there. All right.

Grant Freking: (18:23)
Let's close with this. Instead of me being a 37-year-old individual, now, I'm, now, I'm 18, what's two maybe bits of advice you'd you'd give to me as if I'm like a bright-eyed, bushy tailed freshman walking through these buildings to sort of like, calm my anxieties and, and kind of help me get on my path to success here at Lindner?

Dustin Grutza: (18:42)
I, I would, I would tell you that everyone has that fear of going up and saying hi first. Mm-hmm. And asking for something and asking for help or talking to someone even, you know, just that first initial contact, right? Sometimes you're nervous and you're like, the part of the hole. Should I do that? Should I, should I stay at this event? Should I do certain things? Yeah. Once you're past that, it's, it's good, but everybody has it. So like saying hi to someone, maybe they're wanting to say hi to you, but they're nervous too, right? But in, in doing that, I say also reaching out to people who you may want to be mentors and all those things. They may want to be a mentor. They may be looking for those opportunities and care, but not know how to do it. So as an 18-year-old, go reach out to as many people as you can. Go, go to breakfasts, go to networking events, go talk to everyone, especially those who you aspire to be like and who you look up to, because they will help you along the way, and that will help shape you and build the confidence that you need to have the success that you're gonna have in your life.

Grant Freking: (19:41)
Thank you for listening to this episode of Bearcats Mean Business. If today's episode sparked a new idea, challenge your thinking or helped you see your path a little more clearly, be sure to subscribe, leave a review and share the episode with someone in your network. Thanks for being part of the conversation. And remember, real world success begins here at Lindner.

Grant Freking: (00:00)
What does real world success in business actually look like? Welcome the Bearcats Mean business, the official podcast of the University of Cincinnati's, Carl H. Lindner College of Business, where inspiring career stories, honest lessons, and fresh business perspectives from the people building impact in the real world. Come together, tune in for inspiration, practical business insights, and forward-looking thought leadership on how ambition turns into action. And now for today's episode, Kyla, so where are you from and what brought you to Lindner and uc?

Kyla Ward: (00:34)
Yeah. I'm from Englewood, Ohio, about 15 minutes away from Dayton. Um, I was always looking to stay close to home, so uc was always a school that was kind of in my, on my radar. Um, I didn't think I was gonna go to uc or ud. I had it in my mind that like, they were too close. You know, I wasn't gonna do it, but I visited with my mom and she was more convinced of the co-op program than I was at first, but I'm learning she's 90%, 99% of the time she's right. So, um, uh, very inspired, I guess is the right word by that program. And kind of seeing the potential that I had there to, uh, really figure out and hone in on what I wanted to do, which I wasn't certain of. And so after I interviewed for Lindner Business Honors, got into that program. I also am a Cincinnati presidential scholar, and that was something that was really important to me is, um, making sure that I had a way to pay for my education. And then the co-op was kind of a bonus on top of that, and it just ended up, uh, being uc. So that ended up being the right choice. Right.

Grant Freking: (01:30)
And we'll get to this in a second, but you've certainly taken full advantage of the co-op program, which is what we love to see. Yeah. You mentioned your mother. Who were the other influences and what are the moments that have shaped who you are today?

Kyla Ward: (01:40)
Yeah, I am definitely a culmination of all of the, like, amazing people that I've learned from. I think mentors are a big thing in my life, even if it's, I mean, as early as, you know, like elementary school teachers and just certain lessons. Um, I try to take, somebody told me once, like if I went through it, I'm, you know, trying to give you this wisdom so you don't have to. So going through with that perspective has been important for me. Um, so yeah, my mom is the biggest one for sure. Um, don't know what I would do without her. She is, I am her mini me in in every sense of the word. Um, but yeah, definitely learning from the lessons that she, that she has had or, you know, like the different, um, the different mentors I've had in my life. So, um, yeah, but I think to name a few, I mean, I know I had some, like middle school teachers, for instance, uh, shout out to Ms. MCC and Miss Isle. If they listen to this, I'm gonna send it to 'em. , no. But, um, yeah, they're just a, like tiny lessons in life from like, as early as okay, helping me figure out kind of what I'm passionate about and honing some of my interests and all the energy I had into, like, actionable items. And I think I've found that through leadership, and that's just because of the guidance that I've gotten from all the incredible people in my life. So, yeah. Right.

Grant Freking: (02:53)
That's great to hear. What was your original plan when you entered college in the Lindner College of Business? And how does that compare to what you're doing now?

Kyla Ward: (03:00)
Yeah. I don't know if I would say I even really had a full plan. I think I had an idea, so, okay. Um, I was kind of all over the place, to be honest, but I thought I was gonna do biomedical engineering at one point, and then I was really called to graphic design. But overall, I just figured out that I wanted to be in a leadership role in some capacity, so I ended up sticking with operations management. I've changed my major a few times since freshman year in terms of what to pair it with, but I finally landed on operations management and a certificate in business analytics. So kind of figuring out, um, you know, the, the leadership aspect in terms of being able to be a project manager or have some HR role is kind of where I'm, where I've ended up right now.

Grant Freking: (03:44)
Yeah. And for any students that might be listening prospective or current, changing your major is completely normal. Yes.

Kyla Ward: (03:49)
Yeah. One or five or six. Right.

Grant Freking: (03:53)
Let's talk about co-ops. You've had plenty. Um, but your first one with Alta fiber mm-hmm . Was the result of some, um, good networking on, on your, your behalf. Talk me through how you got that one. A

Kyla Ward: (04:04)
Hundred percent. Um, I've been just talking to students. I've talked to a couple students this week, some freshmen, and a big thing, especially when it comes to co-op, that I feel like we don't talk enough about just like follow through. Um mm-hmm. I was doing my SWOT analysis project, which we all do freshman year. Um, I had Cincinnati Youth Collaborative, which was an amazing company to work with. I ended up presenting on the same day that Alta Fiber did. So it was Cincinnati Youth Collaborative and Alta Fiber presenting. I wasn't really thinking much about Alta Fiber, that wasn't the group that I was a part of, but I ended up presenting in front of, um, one of their leaders and she took a special interest in me. Um, she's not at the company anymore, but at the time she asked my professor about me and just, uh, you know, if I was looking for any co opportunities, she ended up sending me her information. We met over winter break, and by that spring semester I had had a co-op and was able to network with a few people from just her kind of taking a special interest in me, which was really great.

Grant Freking: (04:58)
Yeah. Aside from gaining the co-op, what else did you take away from that experience about being a professional?

Kyla Ward: (05:04)
Yeah. I, I think freshman year you learn this a lot, especially in the business school. Um, when you're giving presentations and you're networking, you're at the career fair, et cetera, but you, you never know who's watching. Um, you, uh, I think that, you know, kinda goes back to integrity and making sure that you are, even when people aren't watching, you're kind of, um, you know, making sure that you're holding yourself to the same, um, the same standard, if that makes sense. Yeah. So even though, even though I knew that I wasn't necessarily gonna get a co-op with Cincinnati Youth Collaborative, I think the, um, professionalism and, um, passion that I showed for that project definitely stood out to another company. So, yeah, just, you never know who's watching and make sure that you're showing up your best self as much as you can. Right.

Grant Freking: (05:45)
And you may not have been able to get a co-op with CYC, but they may have known someone if they were impressed by you, like, hey, exactly. In the more traditional corporate world or whomever else be like, Hey, you should look to the student, contact her professor and get in touch with her. That, things like that, that can happen too. For sure. How have you grown and been pushed, uh, through the various co-ops you've had? Uh, let's focus maybe on like, I guess the harder skills and we can talk about the soft skills.

Kyla Ward: (06:06)
Yeah. Um, I think when you go into a co-op, you obviously haven't taken all of your classes yet, so there's a lot of learning. I, I know like the first co-op that I had, even the second one I remember every day, like I was learning at least three new things when it came to, um, the different business practices that all these different companies have. And so I think that was definitely one of the harder parts for me in terms of the work. Um, but yeah, I I

Grant Freking: (06:34)
It's a lot coming at you. Yes.

Kyla Ward: (06:36)
Yeah. Yes. It's a lot coming at you, uh, at once for sure.

Grant Freking: (06:39)
Yeah. And then maybe some of like the softer skills. 'cause I know you have a love of love of leadership, and how have you kind of gleaned lessons from your various co-ops? You know, we talked about Alta Fiber, but you also have done co-op with Trimble, Delta Airlines, GE Aerospace, to name just a few here. Yeah. What are some of the other, I guess, maybe soft skills that you've picked up along the way? Mm-hmm

Kyla Ward: (06:57)
. I think in all of those different co-ops that I've had now, kind of being at the end of them, I'm going back to Delta, but I think I've learned one of the soft skills right now I'm working on, like, maintaining that network. Um, the, the relationships that I was able to foster at these different companies or with different bosses, that kind of thing. Um, working now to make sure that I am not leveraging those well. Yeah. Like leveraging those connections. Yeah. And, um, maintaining them, kind of learning how to use that to my advantage right now, um, to make sure that I am keeping those in my back pocket, if that makes sense. Yeah,

Grant Freking: (07:33)
Absolutely. And when you've gone on these co-op learnings, you're, as we mentioned, taking in a lot, how has that translated or fit into your classroom learnings your more traditional classroom learnings here at Lindner?

Kyla Ward: (07:43)
Yeah, I was just, I just got done with my OM 40 76 class, and I think being able to take, which I didn't know at the time, maybe necessarily everything that went into inventory or, you know, working in a warehouse at Trimble at ge, learning the things I'm learning in class, being able to kind of backtrack and apply them to what I saw or what I experienced at these companies has definitely helped my, my learning and just understanding of certain concepts. So that's been nice to, to have for sure in the classroom.

Grant Freking: (08:13)
Yeah. I'm sure on these co-ops who you were put in some tough and moments where you had to maybe show some that, that grit that we talk about here at Lindner. Yeah. How did you handle those moments of being outside your comfort zone and responding to those professionally?

Kyla Ward: (08:26)
A hundred percent. I I think that's another reason I love co-op is because it does put you in some of those maybe uncomfortable or, um, just unfamiliar professional situations that you have to be able to navigate. So, um, I think I've learned a lot, especially from like my internship at ge, how to advocate for myself. You know, if something isn't working or something doesn't feel that it's necessarily right for you, um, how do you advocate for yourself early enough? One, um, not waiting to ask for help. I think that's one of the things that I've, I've definitely learned at these co-ops. Yeah. Um, and how to one, like have proper documentation of the things that, you know, maybe might be going on or being able to, um, being able to take certain experiences and communicate them professionally is something I, I, I learned a lot too. Um, but it ended up working out and all those lessons, I'm so thankful that I experienced before getting into, you know, a full-time role where, you know, if I did experience them, you know, this is a full-time, like co-op, there's less stakes in it. Um, yeah. So you do, you get to make mistakes and, and learn from them before you do, you know, go into something full-time, which I'm really grateful for.

Grant Freking: (09:34)
Right. And to build off that, the co-ops have also allowed you to figure out what you maybe necessarily don't want to do a hundred percent full time too, which is, uh, the benefit of doing the multiple co-ops, um,

Kyla Ward: (09:44)
Yeah. Arguably maybe even more important. Yeah. Right.

Grant Freking: (09:46)
Yeah. Let's transition to some of your, uh, involvement outside co-op, you know, student organizations. I know that's important to you. Yeah. And why, why is it important to you sort of to not only be involved with the student orgs, but to sort of embrace the leadership portion of, of those organizations?

Kyla Ward: (10:00)
Yeah. I love class. I love learning, but I go to school for the connections and for the impact and leadership I'm able to do in, um, the organizations I'm a part of. It's been that way since, um, high school. I was like the cliche class president, um, created the Black student union at my high school, things like that. So it's always been important to me. Um, I was just thinking about this, about how I think representation is a huge part of it, whether it's, um, just making sure that, you know, we're being rep, those who look like me are being represented in rooms and spaces, um, especially in these bigger organizations, um, that you may be a part of. So that's, I think that's why it's the number one reason why it's so important to me. Yeah. Yeah.

Grant Freking: (10:44)
Awesome. And, um, unfortunately for you, you're closer to the end of your undergraduate career than you are to the beginning. Yeah. When you think about the purpose or direction you want to have in your career, what comes to mind?

Kyla Ward: (10:56)
Yeah. It's so, it's so crazy that I'm already having to think about this. And I, me and my friends are just talking about like, we'll have full-time job offers in the next year, which is, yeah. Couldn't think about it too much, but , um, I think I have been trying to figure out for so long, like, okay, what do I wanna do? But like, specifically like the work that I wanna do. But I think when I, when I look back at my career, I want to, I, it goes back to the representation piece and the impact, like having, being able to, um, show those who look like me, that like, you are supposed to be in like the room where it happened, for lack of better words, but, um, there's a space for you. There's a space for you to be able to make a difference. I want to look back and be able to say that I had a positive impact on, you know, spaces that maybe I didn't think that I would be able to before. So especially in the corporate world, um, I'm not going into finance or, you know, anything like that. But yeah. Um, being in a corporate space and being able to make a positive impact is in helping others. I just ultimately wanna look back and be able to say that. Right. Yeah.

Grant Freking: (12:02)
And, okay, so instead of talking to me, you're now talking to a prospective Lindner student. Mm-hmm . Some 17, 18-year-old from wherever. Yeah.

Kyla Ward: (12:08)
What's

Grant Freking: (12:09)
Your advice to them?

Kyla Ward: (12:11)
I think the biggest advice I have, I think it just comes off of the, the lessons I've learned in the, uh, past semester. But we co-op is such an incredible opportunity, and I think that, um, Lindner does an amazing job of equipping you with the, uh, skills and the things that you need to be able to complete that co-op. I think my advice to future students is to think about, you know, a job is much more than just like the work that you're doing. Where, where are you working? Like, who are you working with? Thinking about those things. And if it doesn't feel, you know, maybe right in your gut or you. You know, the right path for you. Um, trust that. I, there was a co-op, I worked with the admissions team and a few of, you know, the most influential, and people in my life were saying, yeah, well, maybe this isn't, you know, necessarily exactly what you wanna do.

Kyla Ward: (13:00)
It's, you know, didn't pay as much maybe as your last co-op or, you know, this isn't exactly where your, um, like, it's not gonna be as impactful for your career. Right. Yeah. And if I would've took that advice, I wouldn't have met some of the incredible people that I did, and I wouldn't have had Delta, um, my dream co-op at Delta and be been able to make those connections through, through the college that way. So if there's something and you feel like it's calling you, it might not, you know, necess, whether it's an organization or a co-op, um, if you think it's right for you, definitely take that time. It's, I was thinking about this earlier, it's a weird transition of coming from high school into college where you are, you know, your parents and your, um, your guardians or your role models are who you listen to.

Kyla Ward: (13:42)
Like, they're, they're, they're making majority of the decisions for you. Right. And college is a big transition where you start to do that on your own. And sometimes, um, you grow a lot, especially your freshman year. Sometimes you, um, you change, and some things that others may perceive to be the right thing for you isn't anymore. And so I think that's been, that's a hard lesson that you learn in college, but I would give future students just the, the encouragement to, to trust their gut and go for things that they think is right for them, even, you know, maybe if others, others aren't seeing that. Right.

Grant Freking: (14:18)
Thanks for sharing that. I'll get you outta here on this one. Mm-hmm . In 20 years, what do you think you'll remember the most about your time at Lindner?

Kyla Ward: (14:25)
Yeah, the people. The people. A hundred percent. I have met so many incredible people. Um, whether it's faculty or students in Lindner. I, I never come in and don't see someone that, you know, has a smiling face or has a question about like, how I'm doing or, you know, what's kind of going on in my, you know, personal, professional, um, experience so far. So I think, I think that's definitely what the thing that I'm gonna realize. And I've made some lifelong connections for sure that I will, I hope that I still have in, in 20 years, but just the support, um, that I've gotten at Lindner community-wise is something I'll always remember.

Grant Freking: (15:02)
Thank you for listening to this episode of Bearcats Meme Business. If today's episode sparked a new idea, challenge your thinking or helped you see your path a little more clearly, be sure to subscribe, leave a review and share the episode with someone in your network. Thanks for being part of the conversation. And remember, real world success begins here at Lindner. We.

Grant Freking: (00:00)
What does real world success in business actually look like? Welcome the Bearcats Mean Business, the official podcast of the University of Cincinnati's, Carl H. Lindner College of Business, where inspiring career stories, honest lessons, and fresh business perspectives from the people building impact in the real world, come together. Tune in for inspiration, practical business insights, and forward-looking thought leadership on how ambition turns into action. And now for today's episode,

Marianne Lewis: (00:31)
Debbie, it's wonderful to have you here. Thank you so much. Yeah.

Deborah Hayes: (00:34)
Well, Dean, thank you very much for having me here. I find

Marianne Lewis: (00:37)
Your career journey just remarkable and inspiring. You're currently the president and CEO of the Christ Hospital, and you've risen from a student nurse aid to senior executive. And I've read so much about you and it's more fun to talk to you in person. Your strikes me as a career marked by persistence, adaptability, self-directed learning. I think I'd love to start with was your dream always to become CEO? Is this what you expected to be sitting here now? Well,

Deborah Hayes: (01:08)
No, not at all. And if you would have asked me 38 years ago, would I ever be the CEO of the Christ Hospital Health Network, my answer would've been no, because I, um, loved being a nurse and I never really thought I would do anything other than be a nurse. But then over the course of my time at the Christ Hospital and at the Health Network, I was offered opportunities to do different things. And you know, I'm a non-traditional sort of career person because I had a bachelor's and a master's degree from the University of Cincinnati before I ever went back to nursing school. And, um, the reason that I fell in love with healthcare probably goes back to my childhood when I had a, a crush on a, a physician in a television show called Medical Center Okay. , and loved the whole healthcare, uh, environment back then.

Deborah Hayes: (02:11)
But I worked as a nurse's aide in a local nursing home to pay for my college. And so I grew to love taking care of people and I grew to love the whole healthcare profession there. And so after I got a master's degree, I thought, well, gosh, what am I gonna do with that? And decided to go back into healthcare to, um, really pursue my passion and fell in love with it. And then, um, had an opportunity to go into management mm-hmm . And at the time, I had just delivered my son and thought to myself, well, I don't know if I can do this. And I don't know if I'll like it, but I love doing what I'm doing, so I will try. And if I don't like it, I will go back and return to the ICU, which was my first love the intensive care unit. Right. And I ended up loving that experience because I got to see the impact that you could make on more than just the patient you were taking care of. And I watched a team flourish in some really difficult times, and we became very, very successful. And so that's really how my entire management career started.

Marianne Lewis: (03:24)
I think it's fascinating, Debbie, as you even, I'm hearing the way you're talking about it, you've, your, your career has been one of breadth as well as depth in the the health system. I mean, from IT to operations to, uh, and I've, you and I have spoken about this once before, but when I, I asked how you, you expanded to get so much, you built such credibility in your leadership by having seen all the different elements. You told me something about you going in when you first went into it that you knew enough to be dangerous, why'd you take the job? And then how did you learn through it? Those are big changes,

Deborah Hayes: (04:03)
Right? Well, you know, and I, I think, um, as a leader, what I've learned is that, um, a job description is one thing, and what the job actually is is quite another. And so even when I became the chief nursing officer, right, I had a lot to learn. I was a director and then moved into an executive position. And I did that for about 13 years. And I learned something every single day, which is part of the beauty of being able to have different experiences. And, um, when I took over as the Chief Information Officer, it was, uh, in a very interesting time in the health system. And there was a need. And I thought to myself, well, I know enough because I've worked with some of our IT functions. But it, it seemed very exciting to me. And as I was looking forward, I knew that it was going to be something that would be influencing the health system for years to come. And so for me, it was another way to learn about the organization. And, you know, I learned things about our organization during that time that I probably would never have learned if I would've just stayed in my lane. And so I think that's part of leadership is we have to always be willing to learn something new, to stretch our thinking so that we can help lead those who are trying to achieve the strategic plans of our respective organizations.

Marianne Lewis: (05:32)
It truly might be our ultimate skill is the ability to learn. And I, I love hearing that from leaders. I've tried to share that with students. I look at your, your, your, even your CV and see, I mean, you've been to all the major higher education institutions of the region. You are a lifelong learner in a very intentional way. It's more than degrees though. Would you share a little bit more about how you learn and help others learn with you?

Deborah Hayes: (06:00)
Right. Well, you know, I think, um, yeah. My, my father used to always say, are you ever gonna graduate? And I used to say to him, no, I'm not going to, because it's part of my responsibility as a leader to, to try and be the best person that I can be to help lead others in, in the way that they need it to be led. And sometimes I think it's formal education. Mm-hmm . Sometimes I think it is education through reading on your own, through, um, professional seminars, um, through affinity groups where you can hear the different breadth and depth and perceptions of others who may have your same circumstance or quite frankly may have a very different perception of the circumstance that you may be dealing with. And so I have a leadership philosophy that not only do you hope that your organization that you work for will help you grow, but I also believe that we each have a professional responsibility to grow our own.

Marianne Lewis: (07:05)
Well, I could not say, could not agree more. It, it leads me to a question also about leadership. Um, a former president here at uc was named Warren Bennis. Some consider him the founder of the field of leadership. And he had, um, a saying that became really a mantra that we often use here, that leadership is forged in the crucible. That in our toughest times we find our, our greatest strengths. And we kind of dig deep. I mean, I know you've had plenty of those kinds of crucible moments. One that strikes me as, as particularly important was the COVID-19 pandemic. There was no playbook. This was completely unprecedented and an incredible time for learning about yourself, the organization, your team. I wonder if you could share a bit about how you approached something of that magnitude.

Deborah Hayes: (07:58)
Sure. Um, as you said, it was a frightening moment for all of us in healthcare because we are traditionally, um, driven by science. And we are traditionally driven by, uh, trial and error. That becomes the scientific evidence of how you provide healthcare. Well, all of that playbook was gone because there was no science and people didn't really understand what the trajectory of this was going to be. And so you really have to dig down deep right into your own personal acumen. But then you have to rely on your teams and you hope that you have built teams around you that can be, um, vigorous in their efforts and can be creative. Because we were creating, as we went, there were oftentimes when we would meet in the morning chart, a path for the day, and literally hours later we're changing that path because there were external forces that we did not anticipate would be a part of what was going to challenge us either for that day or for that week, or quite frankly, uh, four months to come. And so your teams were having to huddle and try to think creatively about how they might provide that same quality of care, but in a very different way and break norms and rules that we had ingrained in them mm-hmm . For years. And we are now asking them to put that aside, but to still try and make sure that those patients were getting the finest care that they could possibly get under some extremely difficult circumstances.

Marianne Lewis: (09:49)
I I imagine that the culture that you have developed played an enormous role even though there were so many unforeseen elements to that. Um, I was talking with a, a colleague of yours, uh, Steve Rossfeld, um, and he, I was asking him a bit about the culture and, and I've read about it as well. I mean, you are known so much through the Christ Hospital Network for this deep culture of care and commitment. Building culture though, is really challenging and sustaining it probably even more. So h how do you think about that from a culture building side of leadership?

Deborah Hayes: (10:28)
Well, you know, the old adage culture eats strategy is so true. And I think it helps that I grew up in the health system. I've literally done just about every job that you could think of. Sounds like it in the health system. And I have a, a, a great respect for each one of our team members. One of the things that's really important to me is the concept of team. And so we do not call our employees employees, they're called team members. And I use a lot of analogies of team sports and I think about the Super Bowl that just happened last night, right. And two teams that should have never gotten to where they were. And yet one of them comes out victorious. But the other one has a lot and did learn a lot through that entire experience. But every team member within our health network has a key role in delivering on the promise that we've made to the community. Whether it's helping to ensure that we have excellent clinical outcomes or an excellent guest experience, or doing so in an affordable way so that everybody in this community can get world class healthcare right here in greater Cincinnati. And we try to instill that in the team members through reward and recognition, through helping them to grow to be the best that they can be through ensuring that they are celebrated when they do wonderful things. And even when they're celebrated for doing things. That might just seem like that's just part of my job.

Marianne Lewis: (12:03)
It it brings me back to, to your mantra and your emphasis on learning as well, because you also like to look for benchmarks and often outside of healthcare. Yes. I wonder if you could share a bit about how you find those benchmarks and, and give us an example. 'cause I know you have some good ones.

Deborah Hayes: (12:21)
Right. Well, it's important to me to understand if you think about our strategic plan, how do I deliver exactly what I've promised? So if you think about experience, patient and guest experience is different in different industries, but it's yet still the same. So we have brought, uh, the Ritz-Carlton in. We have studied Disney, we have studied the airlines. Now some might say good or bad experience, but it's really about taking the best principles from many service industries and trying to say how does that translate into the healthcare situation? Because people want to be treated as human beings. They want to be, um, they want to feel like people care about what their circumstances, whatever that might be. And they wanna know that people are gonna go to the nth degree to help them have a great experience regardless of what service it is that they are asking to experience.

Marianne Lewis: (13:23)
Yeah, absolutely. And and living up to your promise in that way, is it, it it clearly it is embedded in the culture and that's why I eat strategy for breakfast, right? Because then it's everywhere without having to call upon it, you just count on it. Right.

Deborah Hayes: (13:39)
And, you know, for us, taking care of people's health, which is their most important asset mm-hmm . Is a privilege, but it's a huge responsibility. And um, you know, in order for us to be able to deliver on that promise, we benchmark ourselves against all. Some people say, well, let's just benchmark ourselves against something of our size. And I'm like, no, people do not care how big or how small we are. All they are interested in is their experience. So we need to make sure that we're the best of the best regardless of our size, our shape, our complexity. 'cause that's what people in Greater Cincinnati deserve.

Marianne Lewis: (14:22)
They do. And I think what in the point of greater Cincinnati, you care very much about this city, this region. I see it in your civic leadership. It's something we talk a lot to about with our students, is that great leaders think beyond their own organization because your stakeholders are so much farther reaching. And I have the great privilege of serving on the United Way board with you and seeing your leadership there. I'd love to know more about why your why and because you're very busy. You've got work, family, a life in so many different ways, and you give back to this city in some very big ways and it clearly matters to you.

Deborah Hayes: (15:03)
Well, thank you for recognizing that. Um, I think it goes back to my upbringing. My grandparents really had not very much money, and they were certainly of no means. Farmers came, uh, from a small town in Indiana, and they literally would have given the shirt off their back to anyone. And that translated into my parents who had an incredible work ethic. My father didn't even speak English when they moved to Cincinnati. He spoke German. My mom was a high school graduate, and they taught me early on that it was really important to take care of others around you. And I'm very faithful. I'm Catholic by back, by upbringing. And that was part of our faith. And you know, my, we had one car when I was growing up and, you know, a treat was to have a soda and go to Ponderosa on a Sunday evening.

Deborah Hayes: (15:59)
My mom worked until she was 70. And this, this is the work ethic that she had. When she passed away very suddenly, she had worked at McDonald's her, um, entire work life after my second brother was born. And they closed the McDonald's for the entire three days over the course of her funeral so that all the employees at McDonald's could go and pay their respects. That's beautiful. And that's the kind of household that I was brought up in, is that it's our responsibility to give back to others. And so as I have ascended into different roles, I feel like it is a professional and a personal responsibility to give back to others that probably gave back to me and I didn't even know it. And so being on boards like United Way and Arts Wave and a, a number of other boards that I've been on is really important to me because it's the vibrancy of the community that we serve that will not only impact their health, but also it will impact how well Cincinnati does as a whole.

Marianne Lewis: (17:05)
It is, it's so interwoven and we have a great city. I mean, of, of people who do care, especially at the leadership level. I, it's something that matters a great deal to me. And I want our students to understand that's how great cities thrive.

Deborah Hayes: (17:19)
Well, when you look at per capita in Cincinnati, the philanthropic support that is given to this community to help those who have need is by far and away much greater than in many other cities of our size or even bigger. And it's because of the great legacy of families that live here. And it's all about how do we elevate this city to make it a great place for people to bring their businesses, to bring, uh, students here to study, and then to keep students here once they finish their degrees. I mean, our health system was started through the philanthropic efforts of James Gamble, the founder of Proctor and Gamble, who looked out into the city back in the 1880s and said, I'm gonna build my soap business here and my candle making business with William Proctor. And what do we have to do in order to make this a great place for people to work, people to live, people to play, to raise their families? And here we are, 137 years later.

Marianne Lewis: (18:27)
Isn't that a testament? I love that. Yes. That's wonderful. Yes. Thank you. Um, at the Lindner College of Business, uh, we strive to empower business problem solvers. That's our, our, our mission. And we believe if we can help students, whatever their, wherever they end up in a career or, or a location for that matter, that if they can be great problem solvers, they will have meaningful, impactful lives as well as be successful. And when I, when you think about your own problem solving, particularly when it comes to unforeseen challenges, I wonder if there's an example. I think you, you, we know the legislative challenges. There have been so many dynamic changes. How do you approach a problem? Right. Can you give us a little sense of

Deborah Hayes: (19:14)
That? Well, first of all, I think you have to understand your business, and then you have to really dig into whatever that challenge is going to be and how you might think it's going to affect different aspects of your business. So let's look at some of the legislative challenges just in healthcare. So up through, we'll say July of 2025, no one really anticipated what it's, you can call it the big beautiful Bill or HR one was going to and how it might impact the healthcare system. So now that we know what it is, we are diving deep into what do each of those elements mean? And then really taking a hard look at our industry saying, okay, if this is what the bill means, then how are we going to react to that? And this is where I think ingenuity and creativity has to come into play and using, um, industry leaders to try and help formulate plans for that. But then also thinking about how are we going to transform the way that we are delivering care that will do so in an even more efficient manner, but yet keep the same outcomes or even better outcomes.

Marianne Lewis: (20:34)
I so appreciate the way you, you explain that, Debbie, because I, I hear your systems thinking, you think about how all of the, the parts work together. I mean, I think that part of that is your breadth, but I also think you're, you're thinking beyond healthcare because it could be everything from insurance, right, to the financial sector. How do we make this work so that we don't have unintended consequences that take us the wrong way?

Deborah Hayes: (20:59)
And then really thinking about what are the innovations happening in either our industry or in others when we think about agentic ai? And that won't be the answer for everything, right? But how can we use that to either improve the healthcare experience or really to make people more effective in the jobs that they have? Because one of the things that I think about is

Deborah Hayes: (21:25)
The demographics of the United States, and with the birth rates, the way they are, the workforce of the future in terms of just sheer numbers are not going to be what they are currently today. And with 10,000 Americans going on to the Medicare payrolls, that means 65 and over every day 10,000 people move into that category. The number of people coming behind them is not as great. And so that workforce of the post World War II era, those numbers aren't going to be there. So how can technology help us to deliver the same products with maybe less people? It's not about taking people's jobs away. It's about how do we make people more effective in a place where there may not be that many people to deliver those same services?

Marianne Lewis: (22:16)
I appreciate the way you even described that, Debbie. 'cause I hear you playing a long game and thinking about today, right? Managing that tension of today and tomorrow, right? With the rate of change, whether it's AI legislation, I mean, there's so many changes going on and the rate, we're never gonna slow down. I mean, people have said that before, but I, I wonder what you think that means for leadership. Do you envision leadership or the, the needs of leadership changing in the future?

Deborah Hayes: (22:47)
I think that, uh, leaders are going to have to be, um, extremely creative. I think leaders are gonna have to be incredibly inspiring. And I think that leaders are going to have to be, again, and I say this to our new team members, you are gonna constantly have to challenge yourself to learn about what is coming so that you can apply it to what is happening today in order to influence the trajectory of your respective organization.

Marianne Lewis: (23:20)
Oh, absolutely. You know, we're very proud of our Bearcat alumni, especially someone so inspiring as you, Debbie, if you're sitting in my seat. What would you be telling to students today? If you could give them some advice, looking back, what would you like to share?

Deborah Hayes: (23:37)
Well, the first thing I would say is find your passion. And that passion, quite honestly, may change over time, but find something that you love to do. Because we spend a lot of time at work, we spend a lot of energy at work, and we spend a lot of our human capital at work. So I'd say find your passion first. The second thing I would say is be determined, because oftentimes your path might not be a straight line. My path was not a straight line. Um, and sometimes there are disappointments in that, but stay determined and stay on the path. Um, because if that's your passion, it can happen, but it may not be in the manner in which you think. The third, I would say is to be a lifelong learner. Mm-hmm . And the last, I would say, and I say this to every, um, young person that I mentor, put your hand up and volunteer. When the call goes out about, I need someone to do this. Even if you're not sure if you can do it, put your hand up and try. Because you will learn something every single time you do it. And it will open doors that may never, ever have been opened if you didn't do that.

Marianne Lewis: (24:52)
You just never know.

Deborah Hayes: (24:54)
You, you just never know. But

Marianne Lewis: (24:55)
Putting up your hand, taking the initiative, continuing to learn. So, so many insights. Thank you for your thought leadership as well as your active leadership in this community, certainly at the Christ Hospital Network. Thank you for all you do, Debbie, and for being here today.

Deborah Hayes: (25:11)
Well, thank you Dean. And it's been an honor and a pleasure to be here. Uh, this is a wonderful organization and I'm so happy to be able to help the students.

Grant Freking: (25:20)
Thank you for listening to this episode of Bearcats Mean Business. If today's episode sparked a new idea, challenged your thinking or helped you see your path a little more clearly, be sure to subscribe, leave a review and share the episode with someone in your network. Thanks for being part of the conversation. And remember, real world success begins here at Lindner.

Grant Freking: (00:00)
What does real world success in business actually look like? Welcome the Bearcats Mean Business, the official podcast of the University of Cincinnati's, Carl H. Lindner College of Business, where inspiring career stories, honest lessons, and fresh business perspectives from the people building impact in the real world, come together. Tune in for inspiration, practical business insights, and forward-looking thought leadership on how ambition turns into action. And now for today's episode,

Marianne Lewis: (00:31)
Debbie, it's wonderful to have you here. Thank you so much. Yeah.

Deborah Hayes: (00:34)
Well, Dean, thank you very much for having me here. I find

Marianne Lewis: (00:37)
Your career journey just remarkable and inspiring. You're currently the president and CEO of the Christ Hospital, and you've risen from a student nurse aid to senior executive. And I've read so much about you and it's more fun to talk to you in person. Your strikes me as a career marked by persistence, adaptability, self-directed learning. I think I'd love to start with was your dream always to become CEO? Is this what you expected to be sitting here now? Well,

Deborah Hayes: (01:08)
No, not at all. And if you would have asked me 38 years ago, would I ever be the CEO of the Christ Hospital Health Network, my answer would've been no, because I, um, loved being a nurse and I never really thought I would do anything other than be a nurse. But then over the course of my time at the Christ Hospital and at the Health Network, I was offered opportunities to do different things. And you know, I'm a non-traditional sort of career person because I had a bachelor's and a master's degree from the University of Cincinnati before I ever went back to nursing school. And, um, the reason that I fell in love with healthcare probably goes back to my childhood when I had a, a crush on a, a physician in a television show called Medical Center Okay. , and loved the whole healthcare, uh, environment back then.

Deborah Hayes: (02:11)
But I worked as a nurse's aide in a local nursing home to pay for my college. And so I grew to love taking care of people and I grew to love the whole healthcare profession there. And so after I got a master's degree, I thought, well, gosh, what am I gonna do with that? And decided to go back into healthcare to, um, really pursue my passion and fell in love with it. And then, um, had an opportunity to go into management mm-hmm . And at the time, I had just delivered my son and thought to myself, well, I don't know if I can do this. And I don't know if I'll like it, but I love doing what I'm doing, so I will try. And if I don't like it, I will go back and return to the ICU, which was my first love the intensive care unit. Right. And I ended up loving that experience because I got to see the impact that you could make on more than just the patient you were taking care of. And I watched a team flourish in some really difficult times, and we became very, very successful. And so that's really how my entire management career started.

Marianne Lewis: (03:24)
I think it's fascinating, Debbie, as you even, I'm hearing the way you're talking about it, you've, your, your career has been one of breadth as well as depth in the the health system. I mean, from IT to operations to, uh, and I've, you and I have spoken about this once before, but when I, I asked how you, you expanded to get so much, you built such credibility in your leadership by having seen all the different elements. You told me something about you going in when you first went into it that you knew enough to be dangerous, why'd you take the job? And then how did you learn through it? Those are big changes,

Deborah Hayes: (04:03)
Right? Well, you know, and I, I think, um, as a leader, what I've learned is that, um, a job description is one thing, and what the job actually is is quite another. And so even when I became the chief nursing officer, right, I had a lot to learn. I was a director and then moved into an executive position. And I did that for about 13 years. And I learned something every single day, which is part of the beauty of being able to have different experiences. And, um, when I took over as the Chief Information Officer, it was, uh, in a very interesting time in the health system. And there was a need. And I thought to myself, well, I know enough because I've worked with some of our IT functions. But it, it seemed very exciting to me. And as I was looking forward, I knew that it was going to be something that would be influencing the health system for years to come. And so for me, it was another way to learn about the organization. And, you know, I learned things about our organization during that time that I probably would never have learned if I would've just stayed in my lane. And so I think that's part of leadership is we have to always be willing to learn something new, to stretch our thinking so that we can help lead those who are trying to achieve the strategic plans of our respective organizations.

Marianne Lewis: (05:32)
It truly might be our ultimate skill is the ability to learn. And I, I love hearing that from leaders. I've tried to share that with students. I look at your, your, your, even your CV and see, I mean, you've been to all the major higher education institutions of the region. You are a lifelong learner in a very intentional way. It's more than degrees though. Would you share a little bit more about how you learn and help others learn with you?

Deborah Hayes: (06:00)
Right. Well, you know, I think, um, yeah. My, my father used to always say, are you ever gonna graduate? And I used to say to him, no, I'm not going to, because it's part of my responsibility as a leader to, to try and be the best person that I can be to help lead others in, in the way that they need it to be led. And sometimes I think it's formal education. Mm-hmm . Sometimes I think it is education through reading on your own, through, um, professional seminars, um, through affinity groups where you can hear the different breadth and depth and perceptions of others who may have your same circumstance or quite frankly may have a very different perception of the circumstance that you may be dealing with. And so I have a leadership philosophy that not only do you hope that your organization that you work for will help you grow, but I also believe that we each have a professional responsibility to grow our own.

Marianne Lewis: (07:05)
Well, I could not say, could not agree more. It, it leads me to a question also about leadership. Um, a former president here at uc was named Warren Bennis. Some consider him the founder of the field of leadership. And he had, um, a saying that became really a mantra that we often use here, that leadership is forged in the crucible. That in our toughest times we find our, our greatest strengths. And we kind of dig deep. I mean, I know you've had plenty of those kinds of crucible moments. One that strikes me as, as particularly important was the COVID-19 pandemic. There was no playbook. This was completely unprecedented and an incredible time for learning about yourself, the organization, your team. I wonder if you could share a bit about how you approached something of that magnitude.

Deborah Hayes: (07:58)
Sure. Um, as you said, it was a frightening moment for all of us in healthcare because we are traditionally, um, driven by science. And we are traditionally driven by, uh, trial and error. That becomes the scientific evidence of how you provide healthcare. Well, all of that playbook was gone because there was no science and people didn't really understand what the trajectory of this was going to be. And so you really have to dig down deep right into your own personal acumen. But then you have to rely on your teams and you hope that you have built teams around you that can be, um, vigorous in their efforts and can be creative. Because we were creating, as we went, there were oftentimes when we would meet in the morning chart, a path for the day, and literally hours later we're changing that path because there were external forces that we did not anticipate would be a part of what was going to challenge us either for that day or for that week, or quite frankly, uh, four months to come. And so your teams were having to huddle and try to think creatively about how they might provide that same quality of care, but in a very different way and break norms and rules that we had ingrained in them mm-hmm . For years. And we are now asking them to put that aside, but to still try and make sure that those patients were getting the finest care that they could possibly get under some extremely difficult circumstances.

Marianne Lewis: (09:49)
I I imagine that the culture that you have developed played an enormous role even though there were so many unforeseen elements to that. Um, I was talking with a, a colleague of yours, uh, Steve Rossfeld, um, and he, I was asking him a bit about the culture and, and I've read about it as well. I mean, you are known so much through the Christ Hospital Network for this deep culture of care and commitment. Building culture though, is really challenging and sustaining it probably even more. So h how do you think about that from a culture building side of leadership?

Deborah Hayes: (10:28)
Well, you know, the old adage culture eats strategy is so true. And I think it helps that I grew up in the health system. I've literally done just about every job that you could think of. Sounds like it in the health system. And I have a, a, a great respect for each one of our team members. One of the things that's really important to me is the concept of team. And so we do not call our employees employees, they're called team members. And I use a lot of analogies of team sports and I think about the Super Bowl that just happened last night, right. And two teams that should have never gotten to where they were. And yet one of them comes out victorious. But the other one has a lot and did learn a lot through that entire experience. But every team member within our health network has a key role in delivering on the promise that we've made to the community. Whether it's helping to ensure that we have excellent clinical outcomes or an excellent guest experience, or doing so in an affordable way so that everybody in this community can get world class healthcare right here in greater Cincinnati. And we try to instill that in the team members through reward and recognition, through helping them to grow to be the best that they can be through ensuring that they are celebrated when they do wonderful things. And even when they're celebrated for doing things. That might just seem like that's just part of my job.

Marianne Lewis: (12:03)
It it brings me back to, to your mantra and your emphasis on learning as well, because you also like to look for benchmarks and often outside of healthcare. Yes. I wonder if you could share a bit about how you find those benchmarks and, and give us an example. 'cause I know you have some good ones.

Deborah Hayes: (12:21)
Right. Well, it's important to me to understand if you think about our strategic plan, how do I deliver exactly what I've promised? So if you think about experience, patient and guest experience is different in different industries, but it's yet still the same. So we have brought, uh, the Ritz-Carlton in. We have studied Disney, we have studied the airlines. Now some might say good or bad experience, but it's really about taking the best principles from many service industries and trying to say how does that translate into the healthcare situation? Because people want to be treated as human beings. They want to be, um, they want to feel like people care about what their circumstances, whatever that might be. And they wanna know that people are gonna go to the nth degree to help them have a great experience regardless of what service it is that they are asking to experience.

Marianne Lewis: (13:23)
Yeah, absolutely. And and living up to your promise in that way, is it, it it clearly it is embedded in the culture and that's why I eat strategy for breakfast, right? Because then it's everywhere without having to call upon it, you just count on it. Right.

Deborah Hayes: (13:39)
And, you know, for us, taking care of people's health, which is their most important asset mm-hmm . Is a privilege, but it's a huge responsibility. And um, you know, in order for us to be able to deliver on that promise, we benchmark ourselves against all. Some people say, well, let's just benchmark ourselves against something of our size. And I'm like, no, people do not care how big or how small we are. All they are interested in is their experience. So we need to make sure that we're the best of the best regardless of our size, our shape, our complexity. 'cause that's what people in Greater Cincinnati deserve.

Marianne Lewis: (14:22)
They do. And I think what in the point of greater Cincinnati, you care very much about this city, this region. I see it in your civic leadership. It's something we talk a lot to about with our students, is that great leaders think beyond their own organization because your stakeholders are so much farther reaching. And I have the great privilege of serving on the United Way board with you and seeing your leadership there. I'd love to know more about why your why and because you're very busy. You've got work, family, a life in so many different ways, and you give back to this city in some very big ways and it clearly matters to you.

Deborah Hayes: (15:03)
Well, thank you for recognizing that. Um, I think it goes back to my upbringing. My grandparents really had not very much money, and they were certainly of no means. Farmers came, uh, from a small town in Indiana, and they literally would have given the shirt off their back to anyone. And that translated into my parents who had an incredible work ethic. My father didn't even speak English when they moved to Cincinnati. He spoke German. My mom was a high school graduate, and they taught me early on that it was really important to take care of others around you. And I'm very faithful. I'm Catholic by back, by upbringing. And that was part of our faith. And you know, my, we had one car when I was growing up and, you know, a treat was to have a soda and go to Ponderosa on a Sunday evening.

Deborah Hayes: (15:59)
My mom worked until she was 70. And this, this is the work ethic that she had. When she passed away very suddenly, she had worked at McDonald's her, um, entire work life after my second brother was born. And they closed the McDonald's for the entire three days over the course of her funeral so that all the employees at McDonald's could go and pay their respects. That's beautiful. And that's the kind of household that I was brought up in, is that it's our responsibility to give back to others. And so as I have ascended into different roles, I feel like it is a professional and a personal responsibility to give back to others that probably gave back to me and I didn't even know it. And so being on boards like United Way and Arts Wave and a, a number of other boards that I've been on is really important to me because it's the vibrancy of the community that we serve that will not only impact their health, but also it will impact how well Cincinnati does as a whole.

Marianne Lewis: (17:05)
It is, it's so interwoven and we have a great city. I mean, of, of people who do care, especially at the leadership level. I, it's something that matters a great deal to me. And I want our students to understand that's how great cities thrive.

Deborah Hayes: (17:19)
Well, when you look at per capita in Cincinnati, the philanthropic support that is given to this community to help those who have need is by far and away much greater than in many other cities of our size or even bigger. And it's because of the great legacy of families that live here. And it's all about how do we elevate this city to make it a great place for people to bring their businesses, to bring, uh, students here to study, and then to keep students here once they finish their degrees. I mean, our health system was started through the philanthropic efforts of James Gamble, the founder of Proctor and Gamble, who looked out into the city back in the 1880s and said, I'm gonna build my soap business here and my candle making business with William Proctor. And what do we have to do in order to make this a great place for people to work, people to live, people to play, to raise their families? And here we are, 137 years later.

Marianne Lewis: (18:27)
Isn't that a testament? I love that. Yes. That's wonderful. Yes. Thank you. Um, at the Lindner College of Business, uh, we strive to empower business problem solvers. That's our, our, our mission. And we believe if we can help students, whatever their, wherever they end up in a career or, or a location for that matter, that if they can be great problem solvers, they will have meaningful, impactful lives as well as be successful. And when I, when you think about your own problem solving, particularly when it comes to unforeseen challenges, I wonder if there's an example. I think you, you, we know the legislative challenges. There have been so many dynamic changes. How do you approach a problem? Right. Can you give us a little sense of

Deborah Hayes: (19:14)
That? Well, first of all, I think you have to understand your business, and then you have to really dig into whatever that challenge is going to be and how you might think it's going to affect different aspects of your business. So let's look at some of the legislative challenges just in healthcare. So up through, we'll say July of 2025, no one really anticipated what it's, you can call it the big beautiful Bill or HR one was going to and how it might impact the healthcare system. So now that we know what it is, we are diving deep into what do each of those elements mean? And then really taking a hard look at our industry saying, okay, if this is what the bill means, then how are we going to react to that? And this is where I think ingenuity and creativity has to come into play and using, um, industry leaders to try and help formulate plans for that. But then also thinking about how are we going to transform the way that we are delivering care that will do so in an even more efficient manner, but yet keep the same outcomes or even better outcomes.

Marianne Lewis: (20:34)
I so appreciate the way you, you explain that, Debbie, because I, I hear your systems thinking, you think about how all of the, the parts work together. I mean, I think that part of that is your breadth, but I also think you're, you're thinking beyond healthcare because it could be everything from insurance, right, to the financial sector. How do we make this work so that we don't have unintended consequences that take us the wrong way?

Deborah Hayes: (20:59)
And then really thinking about what are the innovations happening in either our industry or in others when we think about agentic ai? And that won't be the answer for everything, right? But how can we use that to either improve the healthcare experience or really to make people more effective in the jobs that they have? Because one of the things that I think about is

Deborah Hayes: (21:25)
The demographics of the United States, and with the birth rates, the way they are, the workforce of the future in terms of just sheer numbers are not going to be what they are currently today. And with 10,000 Americans going on to the Medicare payrolls, that means 65 and over every day 10,000 people move into that category. The number of people coming behind them is not as great. And so that workforce of the post World War II era, those numbers aren't going to be there. So how can technology help us to deliver the same products with maybe less people? It's not about taking people's jobs away. It's about how do we make people more effective in a place where there may not be that many people to deliver those same services?

Marianne Lewis: (22:16)
I appreciate the way you even described that, Debbie. 'cause I hear you playing a long game and thinking about today, right? Managing that tension of today and tomorrow, right? With the rate of change, whether it's AI legislation, I mean, there's so many changes going on and the rate, we're never gonna slow down. I mean, people have said that before, but I, I wonder what you think that means for leadership. Do you envision leadership or the, the needs of leadership changing in the future?

Deborah Hayes: (22:47)
I think that, uh, leaders are going to have to be, um, extremely creative. I think leaders are gonna have to be incredibly inspiring. And I think that leaders are going to have to be, again, and I say this to our new team members, you are gonna constantly have to challenge yourself to learn about what is coming so that you can apply it to what is happening today in order to influence the trajectory of your respective organization.

Marianne Lewis: (23:20)
Oh, absolutely. You know, we're very proud of our Bearcat alumni, especially someone so inspiring as you, Debbie, if you're sitting in my seat. What would you be telling to students today? If you could give them some advice, looking back, what would you like to share?

Deborah Hayes: (23:37)
Well, the first thing I would say is find your passion. And that passion, quite honestly, may change over time, but find something that you love to do. Because we spend a lot of time at work, we spend a lot of energy at work, and we spend a lot of our human capital at work. So I'd say find your passion first. The second thing I would say is be determined, because oftentimes your path might not be a straight line. My path was not a straight line. Um, and sometimes there are disappointments in that, but stay determined and stay on the path. Um, because if that's your passion, it can happen, but it may not be in the manner in which you think. The third, I would say is to be a lifelong learner. Mm-hmm . And the last, I would say, and I say this to every, um, young person that I mentor, put your hand up and volunteer. When the call goes out about, I need someone to do this. Even if you're not sure if you can do it, put your hand up and try. Because you will learn something every single time you do it. And it will open doors that may never, ever have been opened if you didn't do that.

Marianne Lewis: (24:52)
You just never know.

Deborah Hayes: (24:54)
You, you just never know. But

Marianne Lewis: (24:55)
Putting up your hand, taking the initiative, continuing to learn. So, so many insights. Thank you for your thought leadership as well as your active leadership in this community, certainly at the Christ Hospital Network. Thank you for all you do, Debbie, and for being here today.

Deborah Hayes: (25:11)
Well, thank you Dean. And it's been an honor and a pleasure to be here. Uh, this is a wonderful organization and I'm so happy to be able to help the students.

Grant Freking: (25:20)
Thank you for listening to this episode of Bearcats Mean Business. If today's episode sparked a new idea, challenged your thinking or helped you see your path a little more clearly, be sure to subscribe, leave a review and share the episode with someone in your network. Thanks for being part of the conversation. And remember, real world success begins here at Lindner.

Grant Freking: (00:00)
What does real world success in business actually look like? Welcome the Bearcats mean business, the official podcast of the University of Cincinnati's, Carl H. Lindner College of Business, where inspiring career stories, honest lessons, and fresh business perspectives from the people building impact in the real world come together. Tune in for inspiration, practical business insights, and forward-looking thought leadership on how ambition turns into action. And now, for today's episode.

Grant Freking: (00:30)
Shawn, you were born in San Diego, you went to high school in North Carolina, and you've lived across the US and multiple countries. How did moving so often shape the way you see people, places, stories?

Shawn Peterson: (00:45)
Yeah. So I think that moving around at an early age has really helped form my, um, mental way of seeing the world and processing things. I think that has helped me be able to adapt fast and quickly compared to a lot of kids my age. And I think that that has helped with the way of not having a fear of moving forward with things that I have ambitions towards.

Grant Freking: (01:09)
Sure. Um, and I know your family is really important to you. Who in your family would you say has most influenced you today? ?

Shawn Peterson: (01:16)
The person that has most influenced me to this day is probably my grandmother and my mother. Okay.

Grant Freking: (01:22)
And why is that?

Shawn Peterson: (01:24)
So for one, my grandmother, she has really shaped the way that I, you know, handle my photography work. I think that when it comes to her, she, she passed away before I had a lot of memories of her and experiences with her, but it has helped me realize the worth of memories and how fast they can kind of, you know, quickly fade. And with my mother, you know, she's always been a very supportive person of what I do. Whether she knows, you know, or understands what I do. Exactly. It doesn't matter. She's always gonna be there and stick by my side. So she's a very loving woman and I respect her a lot for that. Okay.

Grant Freking: (01:59)
And you mentioned photography, which is part of why we're here today. You were gifted a camera at 16. Were you already hooked on photography then, or that was sort of that sort of kickstart there?

Shawn Peterson: (02:08)
Yeah, so when, actually when I was 16, I did not even know if photography existed, you know? Okay. I've always had an interest in editing videos, you know, doing a lot of graphic design work. But at the age of 16, I was going through a little bit of a, a stump in life. I had a little bit of negativity going on when it came to school, sports, all the kind of things that teenagers go through, right? Yep. Of course. And, um, I remember one day coming home from school, a little bit upset, crying to my mother. I'm a very emotional person and she, you know, without hesitation asked me, you know, are there any hobbies that you're interested in? And I said, you know, I don't know, maybe photography. And without hesitation, she quickly said, all right, let's go. And we head straight to the best buy. And she got me the first camera that she saw.

Grant Freking: (02:58)
And what did that mean to you?

Shawn Peterson: (02:59)
Uh, you know, that really showed, you know, how much my mother really supports me, even though there are times when you might think that you're, you know, your parent, you know, doesn't love you and you're being very exaggerative about that. Yeah. It really shows that, you know, they're willing to do whatever it takes to, you know, help you achieve your goals and be happy in life. And, um, just going out there and, you know, she didn't even look at the price tag. Wow. She asked, you know, the staff, what's the best, you know, beginner camera, I can get 'em. And then we walked out and first thing she said is, I love you. You know? So, um, that really shows the type of person that she is. Yeah.

Grant Freking: (03:32)
That's amazing. That's transition to actually how you ended up here in this physical location, Lindner Hall where we're at right now. When you were looking for a college experience, um, what were you kind of looking for? What seemed, what was gonna be a kind of a good fit for you in, in your eyes?

Shawn Peterson: (03:46)
So when it came to looking for colleges, the thing that really was my main priority was what school can change who I am as a person. And I think growing up in a town in North Carolina, next to the beach in a small town, a lot of people say stagnant and stay in that one area. And I was afraid of being that person who would, you know, be there for the next 40 years. I see. I wanted a lot of growth and I think coming to a school that prides itself on its business aspect in the co-ops, which is something that I think, you know, needs to be out there at more schools, I think that was a real, you know, benefit, you know, and a big factor of why I chose this school. You know, I think that this school can support me and my goals and give me the knowledge that I need to succeed in what I do. And I know that this school can stand behind my back and I can represent this with, you know, full confident and pride.

Grant Freking: (04:38)
Yeah. And so the real world experience kind of aspect that co-ops kind of bring, that was like an one of the main draw for you. Um, what, what were some, were there any other traits or programs that kind of stuck out to you? Or was it just like the real, the kind of the overall arc of the real world experience experience?

Shawn Peterson: (04:52)
So one of them was not really a trait of the school, it was more so, um, you know, something that ties back to my mother, right? Okay. She had me at the age of 18. Okay. And she didn't really have a lot of opportunities after that because she has to, you know, fend for a kid. And she's a Cincinnati native. And so while I've traveled and lived around the world, you know, she grew up primarily in Cincinnati and she never had the chance to go to school. So I figured, you know, might as well rep as University of Cincinnati, because at the end of the day, a student of the University of Cincinnati, their family's also part of the University of Cincinnati.

Grant Freking: (05:25)
Absolutely. Let's talk about your business, Shawnie's Cinema. When did you decide to go into business for yourself?

Shawn Peterson: (05:33)
So that was a kind of a no brainer for me when it comes to creative stuff and you know, the generation that we're growing up in, I believe that a lot of the creative things you can do, you can learn online. We have YouTube, we have TikTok now to look at courses and how to do certain things. And I think that when it comes down to running a business, 90% of it is not the work that you do, it's the knowledge that you have to actually operate it. Mm. And I can easily, I can teach anybody how to pick up a camera in less than a day. But teaching them the skills to run the business smoothly and operate is something that I can't learn unless I come to University of Cincinnati. And I think that this school is helping me currently at this moment take those skills and apply it into the work that I do.

Grant Freking: (06:21)
Can you think of like some specific examples? Maybe if it's some, we talked a little bit about what classes you are you're in today before you, you came to the podcast studio. What are some, maybe some specific things that are kind of ticking those boxes and that you're implementing or being able to implement to your business like right away?

Shawn Peterson: (06:36)
Yeah. So one of the classes that has really helped me recently was financial accounting. Okay. I'm taking managerial accounting right now, and that has really helped me with the finance aspect of it. Sure. Handling all the, you know, the paperwork, the accounting side, the budgeting when it comes to doing my work. Because if you don't handle the accounting, you're gonna kind of run out of the money. And it's helped me with a lot of the travel work that I've done where I've had to go outta state to do destination engagement sessions and other type of work such as weddings and proposals.

Grant Freking: (07:07)
So I'm curious what kind of like business problem, or maybe it was just a personal goal, were you trying to solve for yourself when you started your photography business? Or was it a vacancy maybe you saw in the field for, to fulfill for others?

Shawn Peterson: (07:21)
Yeah. So by vacancy in the field of like the wedding industry, yeah. It was primarily the feeling that the clients aren't getting somebody to take the photos that have a deep connection towards them and the event that's going on. Mm. A lot of the times when you get a photographer for a certain event or just like family photos, it kind of feels just like a client to, you know, personnel feeling. Yeah. Like

Grant Freking: (07:46)
Trans transactional.

Shawn Peterson: (07:47)
Yeah. Transactional. And that's not something that I really, you know, enjoy. I'm there for the people at the end of the day, it's their biggest day and you don't want to ruin it. Mm-hmm . And so when I go into a wedding, it's, you know, I'm their best friend. I've learned a lot about them before even the wedding happens, all their family members where they had their first kiss, you know, so my goal is to make their day be memorable. And when they're able to look back at that photo and realize and remember that exact scenario and that feeling that it invokes that, that means my mission was completed, that I did my job properly. Yeah.

Grant Freking: (08:22)
Absolutely. Do you remember getting your first client?

Shawn Peterson: (08:24)
Yes. So my first client was when I was in North Carolina. Okay. And it was honestly a very nerve wracking, you know,

Grant Freking: (08:33)
Well, naturally, yeah,

Shawn Peterson: (08:34)
Yeah. Event. And how it happened was it was actually my counselor. Oh, okay. And so my counselor, you know, said, you know, I know you take photos for people for free and stuff, and I was wondering if you could do a family photo session for me. And I was like, okay, sure. We will do it on the beach. It's nice. Unbeknownst to me though, that it was actually a pregnancy reveal. Oh. And that she was having a baby. And if I knew that, I probably would've said no. But she knew that I needed that little step forward to push me to venture out there and, you know, tackle something that I'm not comfortable with. And it has really helped me be able to engage with other people and keep continuing to push my work forward.

Grant Freking: (09:14)
And how, how did that go?

Shawn Peterson: (09:16)
It was, um, a lot of it of haywire in my head. You know, a lot of things jumbled around thinking, I need to do this, I need to do that. But at the end of the day when I just calm down and I enjoy the moment with them, I think that's what really matters to them. Mm. They don't necessarily care about the poses and how, um, you, you know, handle it. They're more so there for the vibes and if the photos turn out nice and, you know, they recall he was a great photographer, we had a fun time with him. Yeah.

Grant Freking: (09:41)
Getting an authentic experience, which I think is what you're trying to convey too. Mm-hmm . So how do you balance operating a business full-time and being a student full-time? How was that like for you?

Shawn Peterson: (09:52)
I wouldn't say there's necessarily a, um, a way to balance it. I think that there's priorities. Okay. And so at the end of the day, you need to sit down and think what needs to get done, if there's a high priority to it, priority to it, or if there's a low priority. And I've always put myself a student first and then a business second. And that's also been applied, you know, in earlier aspects of my life, I was student first, athlete second. Mm-hmm . You know, my coaches always, you know, you know, put that into our souls and, you know, preach that all the time. Right. And so I always make sure, you know, the work is done first when it comes to school, and then we handle the business side of things. Now, obviously if it comes to a wedding and it's a huge importance, it's their biggest day, we need to sit down and look at our schedule and see what we can work and move around. Right.

Grant Freking: (10:41)
What's the hardest part about running a business right now?

Shawn Peterson: (10:44)
I think the hardest part is the limitations when it comes to age. That's something that a lot of people don't necessarily realize. Um, when you don't real, when you don't manage a business, is that there's things that I cannot do and there's, um, things that I can't prevent. You know, when it comes to transportation or lodging, when I go for long distance, you know, events, I can't rent a, a driver like a

Grant Freking: (11:09)
Car. Right. Yeah. You gotta be 25, I think, to do that in Ohio. Yeah.

Shawn Peterson: (11:12)
So I have to rely on Uber, and that's kind of an issue in some rural prices where there's only like three Uber drivers. Yeah. So I think that's one of the biggest limitations is being able to safely get to where I need to be and to be able to move around.

Grant Freking: (11:27)
Sure. And what's, like, what are you enjoying the most right now about your business?

Shawn Peterson: (11:31)
I think the thing that I'm enjoying the most about my business is honestly interacting with new people. Okay. I think that that's something that I have been trying to work on since I've moved here from North Carolina, is just interacting with a lot more people and having a good time. And I think that, you know, like I told you, as long as you can make this session feel amazing and great for them, it's gonna work out amazing. And I had a good time all my sessions and you know, my clients, they loved me. They all had a good time as well. So just interacting with people, having a good time is what definitely makes my job feel special and it doesn't feel like a job.

Grant Freking: (12:06)
Right. Um, your business, the photography business is one that's based on feedback. Um, your clients are probably consist, are consistently weighing in on your work. I'm sure most of it's positive, but how, how do you manage that? Um, kind of taking in like, I guess the compliments and like patting yourself on the back and also maybe receiving comments that maybe look may maybe make you look inward and be like, all right, I have room to work on this.

Shawn Peterson: (12:28)
Yeah. So how I handle feedback is I always take it in a open, you know, I'm an open-minded person. Mm-hmm . I always take it with, um, you know, care. I'm always looking for feedback, you know, I help, it helps you with growth. Um, that being said, I am a very independent person and I like to test things out before moving with, you know, suggestions. And a lot of the times, you know, being at a young age, um, it backfires. There's a lot of backfiring moments. And my mother, if she was here today, she could say the same thing, like I told you so, you know. Yeah. But I think that's great because it has really helped me become a more of an independent person and be able to learn, you know, I am at that stage in my life where I'm able to make risks. I'm able to fail. I'm not at a, you know, absolutely. A later point in my life where I can't, you know, afford to take those risks.

Grant Freking: (13:16)
Yeah. Try things out. Mm-hmm . Yeah. Absolutely. Do you deal with self-doubt at all? And if so, how do you push through it?

Shawn Peterson: (13:22)
Yeah, so I do deal with self-doubt, even though I am a really confident person. Mm. I think it really stems down to, you know, being in that situation where, let's say I'm in a wedding, right? I'm a 19-year-old photographer in an industry that is typically owned by older people, you know? Yeah. And so it's pretty easy during the wedding with a wedding party, we're having great fun time, and then it comes down to after the ceremony where there's a hundred people there and you need to take photos and control and be a leader. And I don't necessarily take it as a worrisome, you know, weight, I take it more as a responsibility and that they respect me and that they chose me to take control and lead their biggest day of their life.

Grant Freking: (14:04)
Yeah. Get through all those different family photos and everything they want on their checklist. Yeah. Uh, you mentioned, uh, the sort of the transportation issues that you run into. What's sort of a, a shooter travel experience that presented like maybe other unique challenges for you? I know you mentioned, you know, Vermont, uh, and a pre and a pre-conversation we had, but what, what other things come to mind there?

Shawn Peterson: (14:24)
Yeah, so I mean, if we can go to Vermont for this story actually, um, in case people, you know, haven't been to Vermont, it's kind of a rural area, right? Yeah. And so my, my client, you know, he wanted to take photos at Quee State Park, which is right near, you know, New Hampshire and, uh, Lebanon, that little border Okay. Of Vermont. And so when I fly into there, it was all going smooth and everything we had, I prepped everything, the travel, the logistics, the budgeting, you name it. However, the thing I did not account for was it's a rural area with no Ubers. It's not like Cincinnati where you can get an Uber in five seconds. Mm-hmm . You have to plan for it a day before. So it's nine 30 at nighttime. I can't rent a car and I'm struggling. I'm thinking, well, I might have to walk 15 minutes to get to the hotel. You know? So I think that that was a real opener, uh, and a good experience, you know, to, um, take forward and learn from that, that, you know, I need to, um, be more precise and I need to be more focused on the things that I can't control and figure out solutions to work around that. Yeah.

Grant Freking: (15:30)
It's like all aspects of, of the trip, right? Yeah. Mm-hmm . Let's close with a couple of thoughts on, um, a more advice I guess for, um, from you to maybe other Lindner students that are maybe looking to take the leap to have an idea about starting a business. Um, maybe they even have their own business. What are some like top tips you would give them? Um, I guess maybe besides just like going for it and like following your passion, what are top tips that you maybe you kind of have learned now, but like in the early days, kind of like stumped you a little bit?

Shawn Peterson: (16:01)
Okay. Besides those few, you know, generic kind of answers, I think that you should honestly start before you're ready. Mm-hmm . I think that's something that's not really said a lot. A lot of people can say, you know, um, your dreams don't move without you. And I think that's true and you need to start before you're ready. And that's something that, um, Stephen Pressfield has said. That's his quote, his famous quote, start before you're ready. Mm. You know, if you start before you're ready, good things will happen. And I think that's something that, you know, really insinuates that you shouldn't be afraid to start, especially when you have the opportunity to take risks. Like I said earlier, if you just are so, if you're so hung up on, you know, the qualifications for that job, then you're never gonna actually get there. Because at the end of the day, it's all about reps, reps, reps, reps. And that helps you get that experience. And so you might as well get those reps starting out before you even learn, even are even qualified for the job. Yeah. That way you can learn the ups and downs of it. And if you actually even like the job.

Grant Freking: (17:02)
Yeah. Give it, give it a try. Yeah. Yeah. Get those, get that some of that real world experience.

Shawn Peterson: (17:06)
And it's okay if it fails, you know, we're all gonna have opportunities to grow from that. I fail, you know, I failed a million times. We've all failed and we've had those type of moments, but it's really about how you can come back from that. And you know, your parents have probably told you that as well. It's, you know, it's how you get back up, you know, and I think that's a great thing to, you know, carry forward is, you know, to start Before you're ready.

Grant Freking: (17:29)
Thank you for listening to this episode of Bearcats Mean Business. If today's episode sparked a new idea, challenged your thinking or helped you see your path a little more clearly, be sure to subscribe, leave a review and share the episode with someone in your network. Thanks for being part of the conversation. And remember, real world success begins here at Lindner.

Grant Freking: (00:00)
What does real world success in business actually look like? Welcome the Bearcats Mean business, the official podcast of the University of Cincinnati's Carl H. Lindner College of Business, where inspiring career stories, honest lessons, and fresh business perspectives from the people building impact in the real world come together. Tune in for inspiration, practical business insights, and forward-looking thought leadership on how ambition turns into action. And now for today's episode,

Grant Freking: (00:32)
Phil, tell me about like your entrepreneurship origin story. Where can you trace that back to, um, in your younger years? 'cause you started really early on, I think, even earlier than even most entrepreneurs do.

Phil Santoro: (00:44)
Yeah. So my journey started really with an obsession for building and helping people. And at the age of 12, I built a computer for my grandparents as a gift. I had so much fun that I decided to build a computer for myself, mostly to play age of Empires. And so, you know, I was the youngest one in this gaming community. Naturally I was the most tech savvy, and so I was the one to set up the forum for us to all talk on. And if you remember, back in the early two thousands, forums were the center of the internet. I mean, everyone was on forums, and yet they were incredibly difficult to set up. You had to be technical enough to know PHP and MySQL. You had to buy a domain name and, and web hosting. And so my thesis was remove all the friction and then create a platform where people could sign up for free.

Phil Santoro: (01:33)
And I started my first company when I was 13 in 2002 that did just that people could sign up for a forum. And then in 2007, that's when I launched free forums.org, um, when I was at Madeira High School. And that was an improvement on the platform, you know, more features, easier to use. I spent a lot of time just thinking through every single thing that people needed to talk on the internet. And it took off instantly. We had all kinds of forums. The the largest was a Twilight Moms form where a bunch of moms would talk about the Twilight Movie series, but we had cyclists, gamers, um, sports leagues, any, anything you could think of right. Was on Free Forums. And yeah. At, at our peak we were doing over 125 million monthly page views, which this was pre-social media. That's incredible. Pres smart phones. This, this was a lot of traffic. And here I was in my parents' basement in Madeira, , you know, operating this large platform. And so this really taught me my first lesson about business, which is you take a technical problem and you solve it with an easy product, people will use it.

Grant Freking: (02:42)
So what was like, did you have a template you were working off of? Was you started your, even your journey with Free Forums, did you have like a template or something, an idea in mind? Or were you, was it more learning as you go in this process?

Phil Santoro: (02:51)
Yeah, I completely, first principle is learning by doing. And I didn't even start out to run a business. I started out because I wanted to help people make forums. And it was, it was pretty cool to do that on the internet, you know, back then. So really by, by 2002, there wasn't a way to make money on the internet with forums. That monetization came much later. And eventually in 2008, that's when Google Ads came out. So you could run ads on your website for the first time, right? To make income. Um, but originally it was just to do something cool and, and help people.

Grant Freking: (03:28)
Right. And you spoke earlier about sort of the vacancy you saw with for something as, you know, forgive me as simple as, as a forum mm-hmm . Is that something that you, even going back to your even younger years before you built your first computer for your grandparents starting to see when you started Stu, when you studied and zoned in on something was like, all right, how can I, what's the missing part of this? And how could I possibly make it better?

Phil Santoro: (03:51)
I, I think so, but I think it was more foundational for me. I just like building. Yeah, okay. And I think there's a very unique part of entrepreneurship where you have an idea, you write it down on a piece of paper, and these ideas could come at 2:00 AM or or 2:00 PM during launch any hour of the day, you write it down on a piece of paper, you execute it, you build it, and then you watch millions of people interact with it and enjoy it. And you get a rush from that. That is very unique to entrepreneurship. And, and I picked up on that early. Sure.

Grant Freking: (04:22)
So fast forward a couple years, you're getting ready to pick a, a college, and I'm sure you had many options. Um, and you had, you're also unique in the fact that not many students were like you and had successful business ventures. What made, um, what were the factors that led you down to staying close to home and choosing the Lindner College of Business? In University of Cincinnati,

Phil Santoro: (04:43)
I was living a double life. You know, during the day, , I was a student at Madeira, struggling with biology exams and playing baseball. And then at night I was leading this global forum platform and conferencing with my team until 3:00 AM So I, I knew I wanted to stay somewhere around Cincinnati because I had my business there. I had infrastructure, my computer development, server advisors, mentors, uh, my bank, you know, all the physical component. So I knew I wanted to stay around there, but it was really meeting Dr. Chuck Matthews in the entrepreneurship department. I met with him, had a great conversation, was really impressed by his vision for entrepreneurs and, and student entrepreneurs specifically. And so he was the one that really put it, um, uh, sort of decided, you know, I decided I wanted to go to uc after meeting him.

Grant Freking: (05:37)
And so did he appealed to that part of you that wants to build and scale?

Phil Santoro: (05:40)
Yep, exactly. And then I moved into uc. I actually had two dorm rooms, um, one for me to sleep in. I was at Stratford Heights and then UPA and I had one dorm room to sleep in and one for my business. I had my development server in there and all my computers. And so in the morning before class i'd, I'd roll out of bed, go to the dorm room next door, you know, check on my business, make sure nothing had broken overnight, and then would walk to class. And I, I still remember to this day how hot that room got because they're, you know, they're tiny rooms and I had all this equipment in there, so it, uh, it would heat up.

Grant Freking: (06:16)
What was the reaction for, I guess, your, your fellow classmates and also maybe your other professors that weren't Chuck when you told 'em about this sort of actual business you were running in addition to being a student?

Phil Santoro: (06:26)
Yeah, I think I kept a lot of it private until I sold Free Forums. Okay. So there, there was an article in the Cincinnati Enquirer. So a lot of high school students knew about it at that time, but I kept most of it private. I was just heads down building. Uh, and then when I came to uc, I, I, there were so many great professors that I would meet with during office hours and learn from because I had this unique ability to learn something in the classroom and then apply it literally that next, that next day, maybe even the same day in my business. And I found that very valuable. I, I had a lot of great relationships with professors, and I think they ultimately realized that, um, I was interested in the subject, not just getting a good grade in the class. And so they were willing to help out. Sure.

Grant Freking: (07:15)
And you decided as a sophomore to exit Free Forums. So the first thing that you actually created, how was, was that difficult or did you know you were wanting to move on to something else? How, what was that process like as your first exit?

Phil Santoro: (07:26)
I was burnt out by my sophomore year of college. You know, they say, at least for me at the time, they said, uh, grades, social life and sleep. And you can pick two of those as a college student, except I had a business to add into that, and I could still only pick two. And so I was burnt out. I was tired. I had been working seven years plus school at that point, and I just wanted to be a normal student for, for part of my college. Um, and so I, I sold Free Forums to a public company crowd Gather in, uh, spring of 2010. And that was, that was a big milestone for me. It, it was financially great, but more importantly gave me my time back and I got to really enjoy the last two years at uc.

Grant Freking: (08:14)
What was your overall experience like as a, as a student entrepreneur at this time? Maybe also looking at other things, even be maybe before you an you exited free forums and then maybe after free forums. What did you do with the time? I guess you had left before you got like a, a real job, so to speak.

Phil Santoro: (08:29)
Yeah, it was, it's, it wasn't as glamorous as it sounds talking through it because, um, I was just sort of heads down on the business and grades, so it was definitely challenging, but I would say the ability to apply what I was learning was very cool. And what Lindner gave me was a more structured approach to business. I had the first principles, I, I was running a business, but I didn't know how to read a balance sheet, for example. Mm. And there's actually a, a funny story. Uh, professor Nugent, corporate Finance, incredible class. I learned a lot from it. So we do this project at the end of my senior year where a company's going through a transaction. You have to make a balance sheet, reflect that transaction and model it out in Excel. And I'm, I'm here post Free Forums just wanting to dive in and make the perfect model. I had time, I had the experience of going through an exit. I wanted to work in finance. I'm like, this is it. And I worked for weeks on this. And he, he said at the beginning, he said, balance sheets are called balance sheets because they balance assets have to equal liabilities and equity. If you don't balance your balance sheet, I will give you a zero on this. And some of you will not balance your balance sheet. So he said that over and over and over. I bet you can tell where this is going. I

Grant Freking: (09:54)
Have an incl

Phil Santoro: (09:55)
, so I work on this and I'm getting the perfect model dialed in, and I'm, I'm working very hard. Uh, I get to the, the very last step before I submit it, and I wanna make one tiny change. And after I do that change perfect model, I, I, I feel like on my side, so I submit it, balance sheet doesn't balance. And he was so disappointed. I was, I was more disappointed. Um, but luckily he didn't give me a zero on it, and other students did that, but he, he knew exactly that that would happen. And that's the type of knowledge that you learn in school that now to this day, I look at a lot of balance sheets and I will never ever forget that lesson. Uh, and so having that, that ability to make mistakes and learn from things in school and then apply that later, really gave me that more formal business acumen education that I didn't get running Free Forums.

Grant Freking: (10:54)
Sure. It sounds like Lindner almost helped fill in some of the gaps you didn't have from running a business. What were some, any other examples you can think of of like, you know, I didn't even experience this sort of thing, um, with Free Forums, but I'm experiencing it now in an actual classroom.

Phil Santoro: (11:10)
I'd say all the soft skills. Yeah. Um, you know, I was in student government, director of technology, tried to get involved with campus honors program and all of that. And just when you're online, like I was in my parents' basement on Skype at the time, you don't learn the actual soft skills, leadership, public speaking, just the whole gamut. You don't learn that stuff. So getting that through a different avenue is very important because when you start a company, you have to wear all the hats. Literally, you're wearing all of them until you hire people to do those things. And so, whether it's finance or accounting or BI or business law or public speaking, all of these more soft skills that you don't pick up until you're in a group with people working on them, uh, was very helpful to have.

Grant Freking: (11:59)
Did you know you needed all those skills at the time? Or is it, were you just kind of take them in stride when you kind of learn them?

Phil Santoro: (12:07)
I think one of the benefits of starting young with a business is you don't know what you don't know. Mm. And so you sort of just rush into it and you do it and you don't think too much about it, which I think is actually a good thing because most people overstate the risk, and that's why they don't want to take the leap. So I don't think at the time I was thinking about that until I was in the moment and going, wow. Public speaking, like, this is going to be useful later. Right. Um, so most of that came while I was doing it.

Grant Freking: (12:38)
Were you actively, like, mapping out your future, you know, and thinking like, oh, we'll get to your next step after Lindner here in a second. Were you actively mapping out, like, this is where I wanna be, in your five years after graduation, 10 years after graduation, having, you know, already founded and sold your own company? Were you the type of person that's planning out that far in advance?

Phil Santoro: (12:56)
It's easy to look back at my resume and think that everything just sort of lined up perfectly since I was 12. And that's definitely not what happened. Um, I had wanted to work for Google after I sold Free Forums. My, my sophomore year. I had wanted to work for Google since I was a kid, since I built my first computer. And so finally senior year throw in my application and I waited and I waited and I waited and never heard back, no rejection, just didn't hear back. And, and I thought, well, okay, I guess I'm not going to Silicon Valley. And so I started going down my option B, which was law school. I wanted to work in intelligence for the FBI wanted to get my master's in finance and become a lawyer, which would have increased my odds. And then for reasons I don't really know, I decided to apply for Google again, same job, same role, same application package. Three months after I just had applied and I heard back the next day and, and they flew me to California. I had my interview and ended up getting a job there. And that was, that was a very important lesson for me on just resolve, if you want something just because you're told no, or, or maybe they just ignore you, that doesn't mean that you can't ask again, what's, what's the worst thing that can happen. Once

Grant Freking: (14:18)
You were settled in Google, did you ever bring this story up to anyone about like, Hey, I never heard from you guys the first time and I suddenly, you know, you know,

Phil Santoro: (14:25)
I, I didn't, but having worked there, I know what happened. It's just big company. Yeah. Problems. It, no one, it wasn't even necessarily about me. It was that there were, there weren't roles at that time. They have specific hiring windows, and when they reopened that window, nobody's going back to look at the past applications from the last four months. They're just looking at the applications coming in now, because there's enough of those. So I, I sort of understand how big companies function now, but at the time it was, it was a MiiR it seemed like a miracle.

Grant Freking: (14:58)
Yeah. That's like really pertinent I think, for any students, whether the current or just graduated that are looking for co-ops or Yes, yes. Some jobs is like, just because you hear no, that window still open, you may have another opening. Yeah, absolutely. So you, you go to Google, you spend two plus years as a growth strategist. Is, was this, did the position you ended up being in, in Google, sort of meet your, I guess, personal expectations that you had when you were younger that you, you mentioned you wanted to always be at Google. Did those, did those coalesce at the end?

Phil Santoro: (15:24)
Yes, it was, it was very intimidating, which I wasn't expecting because Google is just operating at a different level of scale than, than any other company, maybe even globally. And so I'm there as a recent graduate managing tens of millions of dollars of ad spend for these advertisers that are growing with Google. And I'm sitting there after I moved across the country from uc, going, why aren't adults doing this job? I mean, seriously, there's tens of millions of dollars. Why, why am I doing this job? And what I realized is sometimes technology is moving so quickly or things are changing that the college graduate that's hungry, willing to grind for 60 hours a week, they are the right people to work on a specific challenge or problem. And I think that's very applicable to the concerns. Now with ai, there's a lot of concerns about AI and, and how will college students and college graduates, you know, fare and in AI first world? And I think the way I think about it is, if you're in college, you graduate and you embrace ai, you, you learn as much as you can. Those are the people that will pave the future, um, just like it was, you know, at the time. Mm-hmm .

Grant Freking: (16:38)
What were some memorable challenges or obstacles that you encountered that sort of, if I, I mentioned that to you, that sort of popped straight to your mind from your time at Google?

Phil Santoro: (16:48)
For me, it was the scale, just everything. Everything was larger. And so you would work on something and the, the stakes were just higher than you were used to or maybe even comfortable with. You really had to be comfortable being uncomfortable and, and just the scale, uh, the ability to learn on the fly, uh, but also know that, you know, millions of dollars were at stake if, if you made a mistake. I think that's, that's a very valuable lesson that I took and then applied it later when, when I went on to start Wilbur Labs.

Grant Freking: (17:22)
When you got to Google, were you, would you say you were already comfortable being uncomfortable or is it something you had to learn?

Phil Santoro: (17:28)
I'd say I'm learning to this day. Every single day. I have to push myself constantly. It's something I try to do is become a lifelong learner and not just feel like, you know, school is over, learning is is done. Now it's time to do. I've tried to be a lifelong learner and I catch myself all the time. It's okay. I know I'm starting from zero. I know that I'm not going to be the best, you know, starting this now type of thing. Um, but I think especially moving across the country, starting a new job, not knowing anyone, I was sort of fully embracing, you know, being uncomfortable.

Grant Freking: (18:05)
Yeah. And so you decided to leave though, you left Google your, yeah. What was then your dream job? Why? Yeah.

Phil Santoro: (18:11)
So Google is an awesome place. I met a lot of incredible people. I met my wife Ruby there. I met my co-founder David. And after about a year and a half, David and I started brainstorming startup ideas, and we would get lunch every Wednesday and just brainstorm ideas for the whole dinner. And finally, after a year of that, we had a problem. We had so many ideas we wanted to work on and start that we couldn't just leave and start one company. And so we decided to leave and start a startup studio, which is a company that builds companies and that would become Wilbur Labs.

Grant Freking: (18:48)
And so what, what do, when you think about the early days of Wilbur Labs and those, during those lunches, what was, what was the thing that bonded the two of you together and like that and that idea?

Phil Santoro: (18:57)
Yeah, so I, I had started Free Forums. I wanted to work, I wanted to start another startup. David had worked for a startup. He knew that he would eventually found a startup. So we sort of came together because of that mutual interest. But then it was really brainstorming these ideas and thinking about people say the AI bubble or the AI phase that we're in started now, but it, it really started back in 20 15, 20 16. That's when we were exposed to automation machine learning that this is taking over every aspect of business. And David and I just saw across the landscape that companies were too risk adverse. They, they weren't adopting automation the way they could. They had these legacy infrastructures or cultures that were holding them back. And we both thought that we could go industry by industry and really take a first principles, the latest technology with the latest best practices, ignore what had been done previously, just think of the problem, how it would be solved today, and build a company for that. We, we felt like that was a great way to start a portfolio.

Grant Freking: (20:07)
So what were the early days like? Were you back in your, um, you know, res I guess collectively maybe mom's basement again? Or how, what was, how was, like, how did Quickly did, were you guys able to scale? How did that happen?

Phil Santoro: (20:18)
Yeah, so we left in 2016 to start Wilbur Labs. We worked on my couch for the first five months. So

Grant Freking: (20:25)
Traded, traded up a

Phil Santoro: (20:26)
Little bit. Yeah, exactly. Traded the basement for a, for an apartment. And, you know, we, we tried to take this process that normally is like bottling lightning is what I call it. That's what entrepreneurs deal with, is they, they try to bottle lightning and get this idea and bring it to market and hope that people want it. There's a, a lot of luck with that process. We wanted to build a systematized, repeatable process where we generate ideas, we research them, we hire people, we go to market, we launch a company, and we're building expertise along that full end to end journey. Um, and to give you one example, vacation renter. So Vacation Renter was one of our earlier companies. We were a small company at the time. And so we would take these offsites just to get away, you know, change of scenery from the city, and we would work in these apar uh, these vacation rentals or hotels with our team. And David and I were the ones booking them. And we just realized what a nightmare it was to book travel. I mean, literally you'd have 50 tabs open Airbnb and Booking and VRBO and hotels.com, and then all the apps on your phone, and you'd have so many tabs open, your computer would start to heat up and the fan would spin like a jet engine. Yep.

Grant Freking: (21:44)
I can, I can relate to that.

Phil Santoro: (21:45)
Yeah. And we thought, this is awful. Why don't we just aggregate everything together, all the hotels, all the rentals in one place. We launched a vacation renter, and it went on to be the fastest growing travel startup ever to reach a billion dollars in gross bookings. And so clearly we were not the only ones that had that problem. And we went on to take that same approach to other industries as well. We have a job list, which is a job search engine. Bark Bus is monetizing health, uh, pet care, largest mobile dog grooming company in the country. So we look for problems that are affecting a lot of people that we feel like we can build a company to solve as simple as possible. You know, going back to my earlier learnings with Free Forums mm-hmm . And, and we look to do that in as many industries as possible.

Grant Freking: (22:34)
Sure. Now, I'm sure you guys have, and back, even back then, when you founded over labs a a decade ago at competition in the sort of what you call, you know, systemized ideas, what sort of, what set you apart in your mind from the competition?

Phil Santoro: (22:49)
Yeah. When it comes to competition, we, we don't think that we have competition in the typical sense because our competition is really anyone who builds a business. So whether it's, you know, a bootstrapper, someone getting VC funding, private equity, I mean, there any, any business out there could be competitive for us. But all of our ideas are sourced internally. We have a, a r and d team internally that is coming up with ideas. We then do the research and diligence ourselves. We hire management teams to come in and help do the research and lead the company. And so we don't really compete with anyone necessarily. What we're competing for are good ideas for businesses. And so that is anyone who's making a business.

Grant Freking: (23:37)
How have the goals of Wilbur Labs changed since you founded the company, if they have at all?

Phil Santoro: (23:43)
I would say the goals are the same. We, we look to turn bold ideas into market leading companies. The tactics have changed a bit, especially with AI the last few years. We're thinking more and more towards being able to create leaner companies. Instead of having to spend one to two years building a company, people are able to get something out to market in three to six months. And so that speed, because it's happening from other companies, you know, we're looking to bring that in-house and get to market with the same speed.

Grant Freking: (24:16)
Does that make your job more stressful?

Phil Santoro: (24:19)
I'd say it's, it's different. It, it, it is both most the most exciting time to build a company ever, just given the opportunities out there. And also the most, um, I'd say the most stressful because you feel like the stakes are higher.

Grant Freking: (24:35)
Yeah. What prepared you for being an employer now that you have your company has grown to the, to the fact that you're a boss of many people now. How, what was, what's that journey been like for you?

Phil Santoro: (24:48)
Yeah, I think sort of working backwards. You know, people want to work at a company that's doing well, that is making an impact beyond just the paycheck, which is very important. But they want to make sure they're doing something. And so one of the principles we've tried to believe from the beginning is to solve real problems. And that's easier said than done. I think there's a lot of very smart people, especially in the Valley, who are building very complicated solutions to problems that nobody really cares about. And it's, it's very easy and tempting to get into that, um, because it's really about the building and, and you, you sort of have this vision for the future, and you want to build to that. And then at the end of the day, nobody cares. And so one of the things we've tried to do from the beginning is just solve real problems. Have our teams work on things that are actually impactful. They can see their work, they can see the impact they're having on others, whether it's dogs getting groomed more fairly, uh, so they don't have to be locked in cages at the, at the groomer, or whether it's helping people find a vacation rental for their family reunion. Being able to just work on cool things that are impactful. It really goes a long ways.

Grant Freking: (26:06)
So it sounds like the entrepreneurship pitch is still being scratched you in this job.

Phil Santoro: (26:10)
Very much so. Every every day is different. That's

Grant Freking: (26:12)
Great. Talk to me about giving back and where this sort of mindset, um, entered your, if it's, maybe it's always been there, um, maybe if it's something recent, but you know, you have some scholarship and, and giving that you do with your alma mater, your various alma mater mad and, you know, Lindner College of Business. So what's the story behind that?

Phil Santoro: (26:34)
So when I first started, I was, I was very young, and so got to see the sacrifices required to start a business. And then the further sacrifice is required to be a student entrepreneur. And so I, I think there's really three, three things I think about. One is entrepreneurship is critical. It's critical for our country. It's critical for the world. I mean, America was built by entrepreneurs. The, the products we use, the services, the jobs that are created, the economic empowerment that comes by people being able to lift themselves up by starting a business that is very powerful, and that's not going away anytime soon. Number two is, it is very challenging to start a, a business when you're young. And I would even say the system pushes against you in a lot of ways. And I don't think we'll necessarily change the system. And so we have to do what we can to help young entrepreneurs push through that.

Phil Santoro: (27:33)
And then the third thing is, I've just seen over the years starting so many companies that the younger you start getting into entrepreneurship, the better. Lots of reasons for that. But, and, and you might not even succeed the first time, but you will get so many lessons, so many learnings that you can then take to your second business when you launch that second company. And so starting earlier is almost always better. So for that reason, I started the Santoro Entrepreneurship Scholarship at Madeira High School in 2018. The entrepreneurship teacher there, Jennifer Jordan is incredible. She has this entrepreneurship class. It, it's always full and people have a, a, there's a wait list for it. There's competitions and, and it is incredible. And so I started giving a scholarship to high school students that are operating a business. And one surprising thing I saw with that, which I wasn't expecting, is that the number of student created businesses increased after my scholarship came online.

Phil Santoro: (28:31)
And it wasn't just because people wanted the money, that was certainly something, but people were just aware for the first time that, Hey, I can start a business in high school. Not only can I, but other students are doing it. And that really empowered students to build businesses. Then I brought that mission to uc and Lindner in 2023 with this inro Family Fund for entrepreneurship, helping student run businesses and funding a pitch competition. And then my wife and I now are researching what it would look like to start a private foundation to bring that scholarship nationally. And so I'd say the goals of all of this is help student entrepreneurs, but also increase awareness that, hey, you don't, you don't need to wait until after you graduate to start a business. You know, this might be your life calling and you can start it while you're in school.

Grant Freking: (29:22)
When you meet, uh, young entrepreneurs, whether they're at Madeira, Lindner or elsewhere around the country these days, what are some of the attributes that kind of come to mind? Do you, when you look at them, do you see a lot of yourself in them, or do you see different, is it a mix? I'm, I'm curious about that.

Phil Santoro: (29:37)
I think one of the great things about entrepreneurship is there isn't a single path. There are so many roads into entrepreneurship. I mean, pro the, a number of combinations. So you definitely don't have to go through a single path. I think the curiosity, sort of willing to take calculated risk. I don't consider myself a risk taker. I think that I take calculated risk and are able to sort of think through different outcomes. But there is some degree of calculated risk that you have to take. But really just a curiosity, desire to learn plus, you know, the ability to do something that isn't easy. If it were easy, everyone would do it. Um, that, that's really what sets young entrepreneurs apart.

Grant Freking: (30:23)
Does the calculated risk play a role in you being a licensed private pilot?

Phil Santoro: (30:27)
It, it does. I've, I've tried to be a lifelong learner, and this was a childhood dream. There's something about being thousands of feet up in the air on top of the world in full control with the freedom that is very hard to articulate just how cool that is. And, and I actually was able to bring some of the aviation learnings to Wilbur Labs, really, and, and aviation. We use checklists and risk risk management as a way to compensate for human error because human errors are fatal in, in aviation, in business not so much. And so a lot of our companies have embraced checklists, which we use for repeated work. So anytime you have something that you need to do more than once, we make a checklist for it. And whoever's doing it goes through the checklist, just like a pilot up at 40,000 feet. And that's made a pretty big difference for our companies.

Grant Freking: (31:21)
Was on your own personal checklist, where did, um, holding a Guinness World record for a fastest time to eat a jam donut with no hands come in .

Phil Santoro: (31:30)
This was another, this was another childhood dream. One of my favorite achievements, uh, I actually as a kid was reading these Guinness World record books. Oh, yeah. Flipping through it. Oh yeah.

Grant Freking: (31:42)
I we're, I'm, we're in the same wavelength here. Did the same

Phil Santoro: (31:44)
Thing, yep. Looking at all the weird things people were doing, . And I said, I have to be in there. Yeah. And I wasn't picky. I couldn't add three feet of height and become the world's tallest man. I had to pick what I could actually beat. And it turns out competitive eating is a unique mix of physical and mental ability, but it's more mental, which, which I enjoy. And so I, I actually tried to beat a world record at uc, fastest time to eat a onion. I failed. I could not get past this onion. Uh, and then, so finally in 2014, decided to try donuts, ate 22 donuts in one week, practicing getting the technique down. beat the world record for fastest time to eat a jelly donut with no hands, 11.4 seconds. And the hilarious thing is that every year there's a national donut day.

Phil Santoro: (32:35)
I don't know if you celebrate June 5th, um, you should add it to your calendar for next. I need to. Yeah. And so every every year national donut date comes across and my record goes viral every few years. And it's been picked up by, um, Newsweek, Yahoo SFGate, business Insider. I was in page 86 of the Guinness World Record 2016 book. And then also in this book called The Mammoth Book of Weird World Records. And the funny thing was, we're launching Wilbur Labs while all of this is going on, and we're trying to get some press for our company launches. And journalists not that interested. There's just, there's a lot of companies that are, are going, uh, and launching. Um, and so on the same point, these same journalists are covering my, my donut record. And, and I'm like, really? Like , but hey, every, everyone loves donuts

Grant Freking: (33:29)
And the marketing that comes along with it, apparently for a new company. Yep. That's right.

Phil Santoro: (33:33)
No matter how many companies I start, people just want to talk about donuts.

Grant Freking: (33:37)
, have you, have you, have you attempted to beat the record anytime lately?

Phil Santoro: (33:40)
I have not, but I, I would, I'm surprised that it's lasted this long. And people ask me all the time, are people trying to beat this? And I say, of course they are. You know, it's, there's only, you can't come up with your own record. It's only the records in the book. Mm. And so there's only 40 or 50 food related records. This is one of them. So I think, uh, I think you should try it. Try it one day.

Grant Freking: (34:02)
Yeah. Maybe, maybe I'll have to . Maybe we can find one of those books and find a record that I can go through. I don't know. Yeah, I definitely don't, couldn't do onions. That's, I don't, yeah, that sounds really tough. Let's make that great transition from, from donuts to closing advice. Um, there are students to listen to this podcast. And I'm curious about, you know, a couple of points that you maybe wanna leave anyone who's made it to the end of this podcast with about, you know, if they're thinking about entrepreneurship, if they're having trouble making that last clearance over that hurdle to like actually wanna start their company. They had the idea. What are some, from your own personal experience, both with starting a company and just being in the business for a while now, you're handful of bits of advice to leave with, you know, current students or maybe even recent graduates with?

Phil Santoro: (34:43)
Yeah, I think the biggest thing I wish I had in college was, um, a different perspective on risk and being open to taking more risk. I think I, I objectively took risk, but I think everyone always overstates the risk in their own life. Whether it's starting a company or applying for a job or following up twice because you didn't hear back from someone there. There's a million different risks that, that go on in your life. And for me, what's been helpful later in life is to actually think through what are the downsides if I do this and it actually doesn't happen, or it goes terribly. Um, and it's usually not as bad as you think. And we did a study on why startups fail. We surveyed 300 founders. We did a meta-analysis of all the literature out there on failure. We then combine that with our knowledge and we publish this report on why startups fail. It's been cited in a few different books so far. And one of the things that surprised me is that of the entrepreneurs that experienced failure, 84% said they would do it again. 84% would start another company after going through the worst thing imaginable. And you have to ask yourself if that many people are able to do it again. It's actually not that bad to fail. And I think that applies to everything, not just startups, because

Grant Freking: (36:10)
It what it teaches you about yourself, both personally and I guess professionally

Phil Santoro: (36:13)
Too. Yep. Absolutely.

Grant Freking: (36:15)
Thank you for listening to this episode of Bearcats Mean Business. If today's episode sparked a new idea, challenged your thinking or helped you see your path a little more clearly, be sure to subscribe, leave a review and share the episode with someone in your network. Thanks for being part of the conversation. And remember, real world success begins here at Lindner.